For those still "in" the W.T , a Moral Question.

by wobble 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  slimboyfat

  How high would you rate your moral standards ?

  I am pretty relativistic these days, but to the extend that I subscribe to the idea that certain behaviours are better than others I prefer to talk about ethical standards rather than morals which to me has biblical or religious overtones.

  Where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc ?

  Telling a lie is neither ethical nor unethical in and of itself, the point is what effect our actions have rather than what category they fall under. A truth which is told maliciously can be as harmful as any lie. And sometimes lying is the ethical thing to do.

  Does the end justify the means ?

  Sometimes, I should say.

  Where do you stand on associating with people who do not act in a way you approve ?

  I try very hard not to be judgemental. When I consider how much my own views have changed in the last ten years it no longer makes sense to look down on others for having different opinions and lifestyles than me because, who knows, one day I might agree with them!

  How do you feel about how the world of normal people views you ?

  They should show more recognition for just how great I am. Apart from that I don't think a great deal.

  How do you draw the line on what you will not do at the bidding of the WT ?

  I don't think there is much I do differently because of the WT these days. I look around to see if someone observes me buying a lottery ticket on the rare occasion I buy one, that's about it.

  What is personal integrity ?

  To attempt to live a beautiful life and to aid others in the same.

  Please do not view this topic as an attack on you personally, I am simply trying to get in to the mind and heart of those who stay in a religion they know to be false and a killer.

  Maybe I am not your ideal target audience. I am very inactive these days. I have not been to a meeting for six months. Having said that we did get a shepherding visit a couple of weeks ago, which was as dull as ditchwater.
• 

  AGuest

  What would you do if your employer would do wrong things, e. g. violate laws or cheat customers? Would you quit even if it means your jobless?

  I would, absolutely, dear Laz (peace to you!). Have done so... MANY times. I realize you addressed dear Wobble (peace to you, as well!), but I would like to respond, if you will indulge me, because I don't think your questions apply to what dear Wobble is asking - thank you!

  My positions have been of great responsibility ("upper" management) for 15 or so of the past 25 years or so (approx. 10 as "mid" management)... and so I have been asked to do many things that are either unethical, immoral, dishonest, even illegal (i.e., forge signatures, pad reports, edit documents, create cases against tenants, others, where there was none, etc.). Of course, I can't do these things. Yet, I risk losing a job whenever I refuse. Praise JAH, my Lord has directed me as to HOW to refuse... and, if necessary, leave... without fear: by securing a decent settlement/severance amount befor doing so, so that being "jobless" for awhile (up to 2 years in once instance - almost a year, currently)... isn't so scary. How can that accomplished? Through a brief WRITTEN memo/email that says, in essence:

  "I'm truly sorry, but due to my personal (or spiritual/religious, whatever) beliefs I really can't participate in/be a part of [whatever it is, and I am specific.. as to what I was directed, by whom, when, and under what circumstances]... so what do YOU suggest I do? Where do WE go... from here?"

  Of course, I'm also THINKING (but don't say): "Besides, I know you're gonna throw ME under the bus when it all shakes down... which it WILL!" ("No, I NEVER told/directed/suggested Shelby do such a thing! She acted on her own!")

  This usually prompts a (not well thought out, as to content OR consequences) "demand" from my supervisor/superior that I pretty much "suck it up and deal with it" ("Of course, I'm/we're not TELLING you to do this unethical/immoral/dishonest/illegal thing... but sometimes it's part of the job..."). My response to that is "being unethical/immoral/dishonest/illegal isn't part of the job/in the job description. If it were, I wouldn't have applied/accepted the position. However, if I was the kind of person that would be unethical/immoral/dishonest/illegal FOR you... I would most probably also be the kind of person that would be unethical/immoral/dishonest/illegal TO you."

  Oh, ooh... they can't have THAT, can they? Hmmmm... So, now what?

  So, now, the next step is that they usually ask, "Well, where do YOU think we should go from here?"... to which I usually respond, "Perhaps we should consider changing my position... or the job description... to one where I don't have to even be involved in such [conduct/activity]. Because I am really not comfortable with what you're asking me to do/say." Which, of course, they don't want: they need ME in my position and want ME to do/say whatever it is. Also, there really isn't another position where one isn't asked to do something unethical/immoral, etc.

  Hmmmm... Impasse? Maybe. Usually not.

  Usually, they then "suggest" that I might be "better off with another company entirely." To which I usually respond, "I'm very sad to hear that. I really thought that THIS was a company of high moral standards, that considered its ethics to be above average, if not superior... operated in honesty... and certainly not prone to engage in illegal conduct... let alone try to compel their employees to do so."

  Uh-ohhhhh...

  This usually ends up with me being asked to just remain quiet ("No one needs to know about this, certainly not the board, company president... or [federal] government")... along with an "offer" of some sort ($$$ plus a good reference) to make it "easier" for me to do so (move on AND remain quiet).

  And so, so long as they're no longer asking ME to do anything "wrong"... I'm good with being paid to "move on" AND be quiet about what occurred. Because to their own master... and not me... they will stand or fall. And my experience has been that they (or whoever they ultimately throw under the bus) DO "fall"... within 2 weeks to 2 years afterward. No exceptions, thus far. What goes around DOES indeed come [back] around. In the meantime, I haven't compromised MY integrity... AND got to spend some time off work, compliments of my unethical/immoral/dishonest/even illegal former employer.

  What if the state you live in would incite a unjustified war.

  I believe the "superior authorities" stand placed in their relative places... by God. So, no issue there, so long as I don't personally HAVE to take part IN that war (which I would refuse, if the war was indeed unjustified; however, I would not refuse non-battle "service" if we were defending ourselves. Don't think I could kill anyone "just because", though...).

  Would you leave the country

  And go where? To another country that so incites/engages, as well? Even they don't, why should I leave? I'm not the one inciting war... justified or UNjustified...

  or stop paying taxes?

  The money is Caesar's. He prints it, distributes it, gives it its value. I am not concerned with what he does with it when I give it back to him... but only that I DO pay back his "things" to him. In the end, it's his. To do with as HE pleases.

  So, that is how I would respond to your questions, dear one. Again, I don't think they are applicable as to what dear Wobble is asking.

  Again, I bid you peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, who hopes this handled the brief "diversion" so that folks can get back to considering dear Wobble's questions...
• 

  breakfast of champions

  WOBBLE - I can totally understand your "nausea" with regards to spending another MOMENT in a KH. I remember my first meeting after figuring it out --- I was numb, it was like it wasn't real.

  So, I deal with it in two ways. One, I basically realize at this point in life, to just up and say fuck it all would mean literally LOSING EVERYTHING and starting from scratch. So hanging in their while the society self destructs as they come up with more bullshit doctrine and put ATMs in the ASSembly halls is fine by be if ULTIMATELY I can be there for my family when they figure out it's a big lie. And perhaps I can "help" them in reaching that conclusion from within. I am certain I will never find a better family than the one I have. They are really special.

  Secondly, and this might be along the lines of a more morally "questionable" reason, I find it truly FACINATING how human beings (like myself) are SOOOOOO susceptible to wacky beliefs and out-and-out thought control tactics. So when I sit at the kingdom hall (yes it is quite boring) I actually kind of, in a scientific way, ENJOY pulling apart the WT and BOOKstudy, the talks, propaganda etc... In a weird way it's like being in a living experiment, not unlike what Festinger did in the 50's...

  I know that's a weird way to look at it, but I'm good for that sort of thing.....
• 

  Mickey mouse

  We all do what we have to.

  I'm comfortable sitting in a meeting and not listening, I could not go in the ministry.
• 

  Mickey mouse

  Wobble, were you raised as a JW?
• 

  DesirousOfChange

  BOC -- you said it quite eloquently.

  It's a compromise. You do what's best for you and your family. Getting indignant and playing the DA card just never made sense to me. That's playing by WT rules. Why give them the easy way out. I don't think I'd ever get to that decision.

  Hang in there for as long as you have to do so. Take what you want and leave the rest.

  DOC
• 

  TheOldHippie

  "Please do not view this topic as an attack on you personally, I am simply trying to get in to the mind and heart of those who stay in a religion they know to be false and a killer."

  Well, if one stays in a religion while knowing it to be false and a killer, then one has no moral at all and is not the person to ask a moral question.
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  wobble

  Old Hippie, I guess that is the nub. We need to be honest with ourselves about our personal ethics and values.

  Where do we draw the line ? We sit silently in a Meeting that is re-inforcing false beliefs , like the WT's blood doctrine, that may result in the murder of some of those present.

  How can that be ethical ?

  We have already ignored our conscience,so what happens when the WT demands we do something more outrageous ?

  will we have the strength then to resist ? to walk away then and risk all ?

  It is a little like being a member of the National Socialist Party in Germany in the 30's, how many Jews have to suffer before we stop supporting ?

  Dear M.M, born in, in 1950, left for good in 2008.
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  ShadesofGrey

  I do not disassociate because once I do no one will see that I am full of love, joy, and peace. Once disassociated they will not see that. People know that I am not going to any meetings or out in service yet my life is better, not worse. That might make them wonder.
• 

  Franklin Massey

  How high would you rate your moral standards? On what scale? I would like to think that my morals are high but I'm just an imperfect animal still trying to figure it all out. My morals are dictated by each individual situation I encounter and what the effects the results of my decisions would have on me and those around me. My morals are subject to change and I don't really wish to push them on anyone else. My moral standards have increased since I mentally left the JWs.

  Where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc? At this point in my life, it has never hurt me more to lie than it does now. I feel so incredibly accountable for each thing I say and do. That's why I stepped down from being an elder. I couldn't handle the double life anymore. I am searching for truth and trying to avoid deception. This is very difficult since I am still "in" the JW religion.

  Does the end justify the means? Too broad. Every situation is different. Not sure how answer this.

  Where do you stand on associating with people who do not act in a way you approve? As I said in my response about morals, I try not to push my beliefs and opinions on others. If an associate was doing something that is very dangerous or destructive to themselves, or to me, I would avoid them. I'm very liberal though, so it would take a lot for me to write someone off.

  How do you feel about how the world of normal people views you? As an adult, I have always been the type who gets this response from non-JWs when they find out about my religion, "You're so normal for a JW." I used to take pride in that because I didn't want my religion to be viewed as weird. But it is weird. I don't want anyone to think that the JW religion is in any way "normal." There are normal people within the JWs, but the religion itself, the doctrines and rules, are not normal. Most "normal" JWs are breaking some of the rules. Hardcore JWs are rarely viewed as normal by non-JWs. Currently, if asked about religion, I do not identify myself as a JW. I'm only a JW on paper, according to the congregation publisher card.

  How do you draw the line on what you will not do at the bidding of the WT? I push "conscience matters" to the limit. I decline offers to "reach out." I keep a low activity level in the Org. Fortunately, I have not been put in a position where a really serious matter requires that I take a stand against the WT. Yet. I would accept blood. I wouldn't shun a close friend or family member. I wouldn't profess allegiance to the WT in the face of persecution.

  What is personal integrity? I wish I could speak on this point but in relation to the WT Society, I don't feel I've done enough yet to talk with any authority on the subject. I would like to say that personal integrity is standing up for what you know is right, despite the pressure to do otherwise. That definition doesn't fit me right now. I'm still in. I'm doing this weird balancing act so that I don't lose family and friends. Each meeting I attend, each morning in service I show up for, each prayer that I say "amen" to, takes a little piece of my integrity away.