Free Will and Foreknowledge

TheUbermensch

Hi, I'm a new member that enjoys civil debate, so I thought I'd just throw a topic out there.

If we take the standard, contemporary Judeo-Christian God (all-knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good in every possible way) and attempt to incorporate free will, we end up with a contradiction. An all knowing being knows everything that has occured, is occuring and will occur, if otherwise then we can not consider this being to know all. If God knows all that WILL happen, then he knows our decisions, as well as the outcomes of those decisions. In other words, our choices, and all life in general is pre destined, and free will is simply illusory. For free will to exist, we would need to be able to make a decision that would take our deity by surprise, but how can one be surprised by something he already knows to be true?

Rebuttals are welcomed to the utmost extreme.

sir82

Sorry no rebuttal here. I agree 100%.

JWs like to claim that God uses his foreknowledge "selectively", that he can somehow "turn it off" within himself and not use it.

I've never understood that explanation.

If I have a mystery novel, I can exercise self control and not read the last page, thus I won't know "who did it" in advance. But "who did it" is written on the last page, whether I use my ability to read that last page in advance "selectively" or not.

cofty

Welcome Ubermensch. Really good post, its a topic that frustrated me throughout my life as a JW and later as a christian.

God cannot be personal and perfectly know the future, all attempts to get around this amount to prevarication. I began to investigate "open theology" as a possibe solution (Greg Boyd if I remember rightly) but eventually found the real answer further down the road in atheism.

Somebody will be along in a minute to tell us that god is outside time or something similar.

tec

Knowing what someone is going to do and making them do it are two different things.

I think there can be free will and foreknowledge.

I think God has a pretty unique perspective. One, He knows what is inside us, and we tend to act upon what is inside of us. Two, He has had a lot of time to see what we do, from all different parts of the world, cultures, genders, circumstances and times. I mean, even as limited as we are, we can predict some things, depending upon what route a person seems to be taking. Anger, drugs, fighting, dropping out of school, getting into debt, etc. We can sit down and plan out all the eventualities of a particular decision... and come to some degree of accuracy with the consequences. But while we are missing many ingredients (such as what truly motivates someone else), God is not so limited.

Since God can see our paths, then He can know when the right time (and how) to interfere might be... or not. Which is why we pray that HIS will be done... not our own.

Peace,

Tammy

N.drew

There is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:9. God is a god of the living. Luke 20:38

Did you never wonder what that means?

Jehovah can indeed see all of time. But that does not mean time can not be redirected.

Jehovah does not change. But a person can change his mind. A person can change his future.

All the people can change the future. The present and the past can not be changed for good.

The future can be.

still thinking

If God can see all of time N.drew...isn't there a difference between seeing different possibilities and the eventual result? Does he know the result or not? If he does, then how much can we actually change the direction of our lives?

Feel free to answer that too tec...I would be interested in your thoughts.

Sorry, no answer for you TheUbermensch....I have no answer...just more questions. Welcome to the board!!!

jay88

The person who says this:

tec: 4-15 million children are starving every year because of our decisions, actions or lack of actions.

tec: WE are starving our children.

tec: This is the same question as 'why does God allow suffering?'

also says this:

tec: Since God can see our paths, then He can know when the right time (and how) to interfere might be... or not. Which is why we pray that HIS will be done... not our own.

Hmmmmm,

PSOC

N.drew

Jehovah can indeed see the end. I believe Jehovah wishes it to be different.

Which indeed it can be. But humans have warped justice so humanity goes to destruction

because justice has become more powerful than love.

Terry

I always like to say it would be the height of stupidity to invent a light switch that could decide for itself if it wanted to go "on" or "off."

So too with God inventing people and giving them the ability to decide "good" and "bad". You are just asking unnecessarily for trouble!!

I think we can't get past there being a limit on everything in interconnectedness.

John Muir said something pertinent: "When you tug at one small thing in nature you find it connected to everything else."

We aren't "free" in any meaningfully absolute sense.

How pre-wired we are with our genes is something mysteriously rooted in our nature.

Placing absolute definitions on a projected invisible persona such as God is fraught with unprovable presupposition, isn't it?

Once we firmly "buy in" to our foundational arguments we are BOUND to foreordained conclusions which logically follow

The problem is that they logically follow their premise and that premise may be totally disconnected from a REALITY.

N.drew

Justice ruling will comand the end be the end. It is what we deserve, therefore sentence be served.

If he does, then how much can we actually change the direction of our lives?

If reality hasn't happened yet how can it not be changed?

The living are now. Jehovah is God of the living. Are you saying Jehovah would not help a person

avoid the inevitable? What about a world?

Free Will and Foreknowledge

Share this