Free Will and Foreknowledge (page 6)

james_woods

I always like to say it would be the height of stupidity to invent a light switch that could decide for itself if it wanted to go "on" or "off."

So too with God inventing people and giving them the ability to decide "good" and "bad". You are just asking unnecessarily for trouble!!

But Terry - isn't that the way quantum physics works?

BTW - one interesting complication of the idea about Free Will is that if Adam had not sinned, we would never have known if he had Free Will or not. His descendants could have argued it for eternity and say that they CHOSE not to sin - but until somebody sinned, nobody would know for sure.

Of course, after somebody sinned, his neighbor could simply say it was not Free Will at all; but rather that this person was predestined to sin.

Richard Feynman once said that nobody really understands quantum physics.

WontLeave

@ TheUbermensch

I believe you restated my point in a much more convoluted manner. God pre-knowing our choices doesn't say anything about God, but says something about us. If our choices can be known, then they aren't choices at all, but programming and absolute. Foretelling events depends on knowledge and the ability to use that knowledge to calculate the outcome.

For example, meteorologists can foretell the weather to some extent. They use instruments to gather information, then combine that data with their training in the science to calculate what that data indicates. Meteorology is not an exact science, because not all of the variables are currently understood. This is why the weather man is sometimes wrong. If all the variables were understood, the data collection was complete, and the formulas to calculate said data to discover the outcome were fully known, foretelling the weather should be 100% accurate.

Theoretically, the god who invented us and created the first pair would have the most complete understanding of us. His ability to foretell our future actions should be more accurate than anyone else's. However, if this same god succeeded in creating free will, then even he wouldn't be able to know everything about us.

Some believe since God designed us that he knows everything we'll ever do, but that's illogical. If I whittle a die and paint numbers on it, does that mean I'll know the exact outcome of every throw of that die? To insist that God knows our every action is to deny he created free will. If God can calculate our every choice, then those choices can be calculated. If those choices can be calculated, then we are simply a mechanism put into motion to act out an innate program over which we have no control and that is not free will. Omnipotence and predestination are blasphemous doctrines, because they make the claim that God failed in making us, when he said "It was good."

PSacramento

@ PSacramento

Baseless theories and arbitrary opinions hardly qualify as a philosophical discussion. Why not decree God is purple? Nobody's ever seen him, so everybody can just make up their own opinion and pass it off as an intelligent conversation.

If there is some logic or reason to why you think God is purple, why NOT discuss it?

Baseless theories and arpitrary opinions such as " I think therefor I am"? or "multipe universes" or "parallel dimensions"?

That sort of stuff that is discussed inpure hypothetical terms by so many?

The thread is about IF God has foreknowledge can there be free will, and as such we discuss hypothesis to that question.

This is nothing knew since theologians have debated these things for ages.

God being outside of time as we know it was first put forth by St Augustine more than 600 years ago.

outsmartthesystem

"Knowing what someone is going to do and making them do it are two different things."

I would agree with this. My honest opinion is that nothing is pre-determined. KNOWING the end result of a plethora of a person's decisions throughout his life does not mean that you DIRECTED or MADE those decisions for that person.

This is going to sound really unintelligent but....hey! You only live once, right? Let's just pretend that I managed to fix that old flux capacitor that is sitting in my garage right now. I hook it up to my Delorean and now I can travel in time. I move ahead one day and notice that at 5:04 pm my child touches a hot stove and gets a minor burn. I fire up the ol' Delorean and travel back in time to the previous day. Now I have a full 24 hours to prepare for what I know is going to happen at 5:04 pm the next day. As 5:04 rolls around I have a choice. Do I have a talk with my child at 5:03 about never touching or even going near hot stoves which would cause my child to avoid the stove at 5:04pm (thus pre-determining my child's life.....at least for that moment in time)? Or do I let it happen anyway?

In this case....I know the future.....but I have the ability to direct/alter it.....or choose not to.

For those that believe in God, I think the question is........does he or does he not choose to "direct" things. If he does "direct" things, then he must really love Jimmy Buffett (what a life!) and hate Ethiopians.

PSacramento

God can choose to direct things of course, that he choose not to or only certian things is of course the perogative of God.

I would hazard to even attempt to understand the views of a being that can foresee every possible outcome of every decision.

myelaine

dear PSacramento...

you said: "I know that some people believs that there are those that are destined to damnation and thier are passages that seem to imply that and I wish that I could have a concrete answer for you as to why those passages seem to imply that, but I don't."...

there is no contradiction if God knows the beginning from the end AND every hair of our head is numbered AND the unrepentant are destined for damnation. (jude 4,5,6,7)

just like there is no contradiction if God knows the beginning from the end AND every hair of our head is numbered AND the repentant have chosen the higher calling. (romans 8:28-30)

love michelle

EntirelyPossible

Crawl through the flames that eat your flesh
Drowned in my waters that know you best
Step inside I've been waiting here for you

On your knees where you shall crawl
Flying so high you'll never fall
Step inside we've been waiting here for you

Bow down you've chose your maker
He never gives he's always the taker
The electric burns that fuel the fire
It's just your suicide messiah

On a completely unrelated note to how silly this whole bit is, warm brie, fig preserves and bit of bacon on a cracker. Delicious. Try it. Seriosuly. You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion on who's more bonkers both for and about invisible people in the sky.

tec

I don't really like figs, EP. Not a big fan of anything that is fig-like, date-like, or raison-like. Its the stuff around them that I usually like, and so then I can tolerate the figs or whatever.

Your dessert does hit all four food groups though ;)

Peace,

Tammy

EntirelyPossible

It's not necessarily for everyone, Tammy, for sure. I am more of a savory/salty snack or dessert person, a cheeseboard for dessert to me is one of the best things ever.

I don't really like raisins. I LOVE fresh figs. Dates are OK prepared a certain way. Once I had dates stuffed with goat cheese wrapped in grape leaves and bacon with a chocolate sauce drizzled over them. Holy Mary sweet mother of Jesus was that stuff good.

But seriously, the brie with the bacon and warm brie...the fig preserves don't need to be much. They add a touch of sweetness and a hint of dark fruity flavors to the cheese and bacon.

Of course, that was my dessert on a camping trip, after grilling filets over a hardwood coal fire. The next night I made a lamb stew with rosemary, thyme and fresh anaheim and bell peppers and onions.

I don't make camp food like normal people.

sizemik

EP . . . if I'm ever in the neighbourhood we must do 18. I'll bring the drinks . . . you can bring lunch.

Freewill and foreknowledge create an irreconciliable contradiction on all levels . . . and a cog diss that you can't resolve without speculation bias . . . and some of it is pretty out there on the logic register.

"Selective knowing" for an omniscient God is just silly . . . "omniscient" no longer applies to one lacking foreknowledge . . . even if it is voluntary. If he's omnipotent then he's already allowing the "unknown" to occur anyway . . . is that a responsible alternative?

If God operates "outside of time" as we know it . . . then he must still be able to observe things happening in it's realm . . . and have dominion over it . . . so that's just silly too.

outsmartthesystem's back to the future analogy nails the contradiction in place . . . and it's not resolvable.

Free Will and Foreknowledge

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