by Billy the Ex-Bethelite 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
OUTLAW- thank you! It has been a number of years since those mini strokes,
unfortunatly my memory and vocabulary as well as focus continue to worsen as time goes on.....FactFinder
Your more than welcome..
I understand stroke victims..Keep working at it..
I know it`s not easy..
........................;-)...OUTLAW
@ OUTLAW: I wouldn't be surprised if my last congregation is still counting me as an "invisibly present" regular publisher.....BTB
LOL!!@Billy!!..
Nothing would surprise me at this point..
Watchtower World is a Strange place..
.......................;-)...OUTLAW
Billy the ex-B said "
@ breakfast of champions: Yeah, well, Jehovah is also known as the greatest killer of all time! I mentioned Ananias and Sapphira in the OP for a reason. In one of the congregations I was secretary of, I went through the tons of old letters and crap in the file cabinet and came across a letter from the branch sent to the congregation because one of the young pioneer sisters, I think she was the only pioneer in the congregation at the time even, had confessed that she had reported more hours than she actually spent out in the ministry. What was the response from Brooklyn at this confession? The letter included explaining that Ananias and Sapphira were killed by Jehovah for giving a lying report to the brothers in charge of the congregation! I was disgusted that they would bring up such an ugly Bible account. It didn't matter that they then tried to give "comfort" by saying that the confession was the right thing to do and she would be removed as a pioneer, but no other punishment. Duh. Jehovah didn't strike her down for lying about her time because no worthwhile god would give a rats ass about such futile works orchestrated by a printing corporation."
This is appalling. It is surprising that this decision wasn't left up to the elders and so it is Bethel that is responsible for such actions.
I guess we all have different moral standards and I put honesty and truthfulness at the top of my list. For this sister to confess of her wrongdoing would have been discipline in itself for her. What they achieved was a lose/lose situation on both their parts, they must be idiots not to think through what they are trying to achieve. Then again, their philosophy is to put the organisation first and this is an example of how screwed up their decisions can be on that basis.
Really, if they wanted to discipline her (and that is so questionable) they could have posed the idea to her as to how she thought she could make up for this wrongdoing. One idea would be for her to do extra time for the unworked hours already recorded.
I feel sorry for her to be made an example before her congregation when what she ended up doing was actually very commendable.
Interesting post Listener . . .
In an Organisation where honesty is "negotiable" in so many areas . . . they still have the gall to punish for what is basically an act of honesty. It reminds me of my own pioneering days ending.
I had gone two years . . . got the time in . . . but only managed 982 hours year three. Never mind that I'd spent the whole of the last month in bed with hepatitis . . . I was removed as a Reg Pioneer. All I needed to do was fudge 18 hours . . . like they probably would have done. Instead nobody wins and you end up feeling like crap either way.
The lack of honesty goes hand in hand with the crazy decisions . . . it's all a lack of real love.
sizemilk
I am appalled that you were removed for just being short 18 hours. When I was pioneering there were 10 of us pioneers. NO and I mean NO ONE made their time. They were always short 50 to 100 hours yet they ALL stayed on the list for the four years I was in the hall. This one sister would sort of brag about being short every August.
I always tried to be supper honest and made my time expect the third year, I cannot remember exactly why I missed it that time but I believe it was due to work. I was short about 20 hours is all, and compared to everyone else I truly did not feel that bad.
I used to ask my elder husband why everyone was getting away with not making their time and he told me it was none of my business that they had to answer to Jehovah. I said yes that maybe thats true but they are on assembly parts bragging about how they are sacrificing to pioneer, I was asked only once to be on a part on an assembly these people were on the stage ALL THE TIME. I said it is like a lie, they are not putting themselves out. Only one of the sisters who was pioneering worked. I was hardly ever invited into anyone's home but the one pioneer sister's home I was in was beyond filthy.
Here I was working 30 plus hours a week and trying to get 90 hours a month and have a clean home and car and trying to be as honest as I could about it. I would try to do the thing Bethel suggested, early in the day, early in the month, early in the year. I remember one time being totally ripped into in front of ALL THE PIONEERS by one of the sisters her husband and parents all pioneers were there too and she just ripped into me asking WHAT GOOD DID I DO PIONEERING!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was just appalled and wanted to crawl out of the KH. She would not let up. She stood right in front of me with the whole body of pioneers in the room and said LITS I WANT AN ANSWER WHAT GOOD DO YOU DO??????????????????? I was so embarrassed I mumbled I guess I do no good and she said YOU GOT THAT ONE RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went out to the car and was crying my eyes out. My husband who had not been there came into the car and asked what was wrong, when I told him what she had said to me my husband said "no way." She is just too sweet of a sister to say something like that to you, A week later her parents came up to me and apologized for her in front of my husband. They said they had been speechless when she had went off on me and did not know what to do to make things better because they knew it was killing me the way she was talking to me. They had told her to apoogize but she said NO that she felt what she had said to me was true. Why her parents told me this part I will never understand. Till this day her words still really, really hurt and the way my husband stood up for her really affected out marriage even until this day. When her parents apologized he had to eat crow for not believing me.
My desire to pioneer died that day.
LITS
The other thing about the pioneers in the hall is that when I would work with them we ran errands during field service. We stopped at the post office, drug store, grocery store then we would have to run what ever they got home. They always made sure we made a call to start our time then we would start in on the errands.
At first I would only count the time for that call and then stop it until we started back up again but this one time we left the hall at 9:30 made one call and did all the errands by the time we were done it was 12:00 noon. I was with the parents of the sister who had yelled at me and they said well we did pretty good today getting in two and half hours. I was blown away. WE DID ONE CALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pioneering I am sure is a huge lie for so many. I am sure Bethel knows that.
LITS
Must you go on speaking for God when he never once has said the things that you are putting in his mouth? Does God want your help if you are going to twist the truth for him? Be careful that he does not find out what you are doing! Or do you think you can fool God as well as men? No, you will be in serious trouble with him if you use lies to try to help him out. Doesn't his majesty strike terror to your heart? How can you do this thing?-- Job 13:7-11
A member of Christ's body, SG
jwfacts: What I think is more important is that the preaching work is almost entirely ineffective.
And I think that's a huge justification for everybody that fudges on their time. Sure, there will be those CO visits, assemblies, conventions, or other "experiences" that might spark a gung-ho spirit to go preach, but when the reality of not-at-homes and apathy are the norm, it becomes much more "practical" to get something done at the Post Office or eat breakfast, instead of going through the futile motions of "preaching". And when you're a pioneer, it's simple to consider about any time that you're dressed up as "countable". And if you're talking to somebody's unbaptized kid, may as well count that too. It's certainly more "countworthy" than riding around the rurals shoving magazines inside the screendoors of not at homes. We've all heard the experiences of angels directing a publisher to one more door that some lady was praying behind. Reality for me was, that never happened, I never felt the angels directing me to one more door. And if I did that extra door at the end of the day, it was never anything. If anything, I think the angels were really trying to tell me to stop bugging people and go get my own life in order.
Another story I recall is about a pioneer that was too honest and admitted that she counted it as "time" when her "study" would come to the meeting and they would sit together during the meeting. She justified that she helped the "study" look up scriptures. The CO used this as a "bad example." Admitting something like that would be just plain dumb. Think it, do it, but don't tell anybody. But frankly, her time sitting in that chair was more productive than much of the time the rest of us were out preaching. It's all just busy work.
And the reality of the ineffective ministry and faking time is played out in the lives of the COs. I think they set the example for the superficiality of the ministry. Sure, they give the talks that fire up the sheeples. They have the beatings for field service that bring the crowds and send them out in cargroups. And if you work with them, you might actually do a bunch of d2d. The reality of my experience, particularly when they got comfortable with me, was that much less enthusiasm for the ministry ever came out. They were more than happy to just come along on my RVs, that's easy time. Or other "shepherding" was much easier still. At the time, it didn't bother me much. I realized that they had busy lives and getting a break from d2d was a relief for them. But there was also a sort of "CO con" every visit. There'd be this excitement that "we worked with the CO and placed lots of magazines and started a couple of studies in our group this morning!" The reality that followed was that few of the placements were home or interested next visit. The "studies" were polite, but not interested. It was much ado about nothing... until the next visit. The CO would rarely ever ask about the previous placements from the earlier visit because they realized that it was all "smoke and mirrors", part of the game to excite the sheeples for a while.
Something else about the COs that bugged us as bethelites was their "day off." For bethelites, we worked during the week and some Saturdays. Besides the meetings, we were expected to spend time in service every weekend. And we were usually in distant congregations that took even more time. Of course, we realized that the publishers also were extremely busy, had work, family, and all their free time was supposed to be ministry, meetings, etc. However, the CO and wife had Monday off. Most went out on Sunday for no more than an hour after the meeting, or not at all. And Tuesday didn't start until the meeting or going through the records just before the meeting. Some of the COs were busy with calls and paperwork during this "time off." But many, maybe most, had done it enough that they filled out the forms really fast and wouldn't take any calls outside of "business hours." They gave the same talks every week, so that was no big deal. And their assembly talks were mostly recycled stuff from other talks. While some Mondays might be spent on mundane things like shopping, cleaning, or laundry, I learned that it was never for field service. They had the luxury of free time, a day off. The rank and file are expected to spend their free time and holidays in the ministry and cram the mundane things in any evening gap, but the CO leaders spend their free time not in the ministry. And believe it or not, the CO might take that Monday to go golfing or boating and his wife shopping with their "friends." And we had the COs that showed up just in time for the Tuesday meeting and left ASAP on Sunday, because they had to go take care of family or something, but for the rank and file two days each week to go take care of granny is a luxury we didn't have... sorry granny. More and more I found that the COs just didn't relate to the real concerns of people in the congregation. Often those that had raised families and were genuinely caring, got replaced by couples that didn't relate to the realities of work and family. And these "lifers" were just corporate middle managers doing a job as quickly as possible, with as much fanfare as they could rally. And they certainly didn't understand the realities of paying the bills. The COs got most of their bills paid by the congregation, free car, health insurance, green handshakes, and a stipend from the branch. Such a life of privilege is far from the reality of the rest of JWs.
The CO arrangement doesn't make for an atmosphere of love, genuineness, and honest that builds lasting relationships. It's sort of a quick fix and dash for the door. I think this is easy for elders and pioneers to pick up on. Increasingly, the CO wasn't really that interested in fixing or helping. It was about the numbers. And if the numbers aren't there, or if there are other problems, it's a matter of pointing the blame. And, of course, the blame didn't lie with the organization or it's flaws. No, fingers were pointed at the publishers, the book study conductors, the elders. And the main solution would be "more service." Which basically meant, "fix it with bigger numbers." It didn't fix anything. It just created an atmosphere of increasing dishonesty, plaster over the apathy and publisher problems with big numbers and ignore the underlying problem.
Okay, enough venting from me for this weekend.
Billy you are so right. The CO we had from 2006 till 2009 was all about his time and his doing things his way he was one of the youngest CO we have had around early 40's at the time.. He was the first CO who showed he could care less about the congregation.
There was this one supper strong elder's wife in the hall who in only in her early 30's and sticks to the book in all matters when it comes to the religion she will not miss a meeting no matter what, etc. Well the first pioneer meeting with the CO she said he fled as soon as they said prayer. She said she looked up and he was out the door by the time the bother he had assigned to say the prayer had said amen.
It seemed he was on his way to a ski trip with his wife for the afternoon and he needed to go. He was very open about everything. How he and his wife needed time alone to be a couple, etc.
I thought that must be nice. I never got it pioneering or at Bethel oreven just being a plain old publisher in the hall married to an elder we hardly ever had time just to be with each and spend time together the congregation ALWAYS came first. Yet here this CO demanded it and took time for him and his wife.
It really bothered me, why was he and his wife so much more special then us rank and file.
LITS
That's how it was for me LITS. I felt guilty doing anything that didn't "promote kingdom interests", and my husband tried to break me out of it, but others in the congregation had the opposite view of things and would drag me back in. :(
It is amazing now, to not feel guilty. I used to always feel guilty.
Love, Shades
