How important is or will be the WWC case? too good to be true?

by Aussie Oz 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Aussie Oz

  How important is it now and how important will it be?

  I think of some of the cases in history that the WT has fought...

  The 40s and 50s were spent defending the right to preach. Ok pretty important gains for everyone in freedom of speech etc. The walsh trial was a brilliant thing exposing the fact that JWs had to believe untruths but was too early for the mass media to get a hold of it. Much time spent trying to bargain with dictatorships to allow them to hold property and be a 'religion' as well as using cunning to fool governments into letting them stay.

  But may the victorian case be even more important in the long run? This is challenging in the legal system of a democratic western country, the very authority and existance of the GB and the faithful slave, taking them to task for violating a decent and proper law. The very fabric that holds them together is under scrutiny and this time, the internet is on to it. It can't go away quietly as the walsh trial must have, with very few even knowing it happened.

  It might be happening in an unlikely country, in an even more unlikely country court, headed by an unlikely man. But i think that if this does get taken on by a higher body and not dismissed and fizzle out that we may well be witnessing a real peice of Watchtower changing history. Even as far as it has gone, if the recording of the last hearing (is done by the court) is ever made public by audio and transcript, much damage can be done to the corporation on a membership front.

  The rank and file may want to swallow the spin that may come down from the top, much may be made of 'persecution' and being picked on by the JWs too. But there has not been the threat or possibility of the leadership being arrested since the days of Rutherford. The days of Rutherford though were the days when news travelled slow, where nobody got to comment on it in real time, where the only spread of news was from newspapers and in the case of JWs, their own rag. Now we have the internet, perhaps the most powerful comunication tool every concieved.

  This case has the potential to topple the top and to fizzle at the same time. I dont want to be a pessimist and say the Watchtower is invincible and this case is all too good to be true.

  Perhaps i hope for too much, but i think i might be in that court room next week to see for myself what goes down...

  oz
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  JAFO

  i think i might be in that court room next week to see for myself what goes down...

  That would be cool..
• 

  Listener

  That would be really great to get your first hand feedback Oz.

  It is really hard to know what will happen from here. I certainly don't think anyone will be thrown in jail as there are fines that can be imposed. It is however a serious piece of legislation and one that I have not heard anyone complaining about but rather the opposite.

  Now that they are probably going to be saying that they are voluntarily complying with the law it may fizzle out, it really depends on the court but the charge is there and must be answered. If the org takes the angle that they don't think it applies to them anyway then it may motivate the courts to clear up the matter through the courts so that a precedent is set.
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  Vidqun
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  Band on the Run

  It has already accomplished much! The WTBTS had to swallow its arrogance and encourage elders to comply. I expect the claims against most defendants will be dismissed. Someone else made this point which is very astute. They are used to being a plaintiff and having the ACLU and other rights groups on their side. Legal literature is chock full of cases, law review articles, and Internet forums designed to forward a broad reading of the First Amendment.

  I do not know the exact contours of Australian Free Exercise law. Australia is not communist China or a devoutly Muslim country ruled by religious leaders, such as Iran. Australia inheirited a vigorous religious freedom imperative from English const'l history. It may not be as broad as in the US, but it is broad. Other minority religions will not support them in this case. Children are highly protected in law. The legal rulings and commentary bolstering their view must be miniscule compared to the past. This case casts them as a large religion compared to Unthank. I also believe the European decisions under civil law restricting the Witnesses affects their stance. France, Germany, etc. are not totalitarian dictatorships.

  The bad publicity is another headache for them. Complying does not cost them much. Noncompliance cast them as a religion that does not care for a vital community interest -- children. This is not a two witness rule. Jesus said to render Caesar's things to Caesar. As I always comment, Witness lawyers must not be able to see a complete picture. If they could accurately gauge the overall impact, they would not be Witnesses. The skill set for a lawyer and an active Witness is very different. They are only seeing narrow legal battles which leads them to lose the war.

  Finally, this case will encourage others to bring suit in their localities. Even if those suits don't go far, it costs money and other resources to defend them.
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  Gayle

  oz, that would great if you can go. Would appreciate your report. I do look forward to eventual transcripts. I can't think that the WTS would want this case to go further. There is no religious card for them to throw in on this. That the elders have been ordered to get the WWC registration now, shows the WTS doesn't want to fight this. They will want to hush it up. It'll be interesting how many elders 'step down' or out.

  Of course, in the future, in consideration for 'new' elders, they will have to be 'WWC compliant' first. They will have to check with "Caesar" first. Funny.
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  blondie

  I figure it all depends on the goal:

  1) Bring down the WTS

  2) Protect children from pedophiles

  There is a group called SNAP, started by Catholics and ex-Catholics to bring pedophiles in the Catholic Church and those to protect them to be held accountable legally. A small group started in 1988 and started making substantial legal progress in 2002. For 14 years they might have thought it too good to be true but then their efforts started taking root. Their efforts have helped all abuse vicitms, Catholic, Non-catholic, atheist. They have taken on helping groups from other religions and non-religious organizations like the Boy Scouts. Their goal is not to bring down the Catholic Church or any religious group but to get help/support for the victims and to prevent future abuse. The laws they have strengthened in alll 50 states, Canada, Ireland, other European countries have benefited all victims, making it possible for many as adults to report their abuser and have them held responsibile legally.

  Will this help, making the WTS legally responsible under the laws in the countries they do business, yes. The WTS does not feel any responsibility towards God just the legal system and the potential monetary punishment. So if the goal is to bring down the WTS, then I feel this motive is misplaced and doomed to failure. If it is to help victims and hold abusers responsible by strengthening the legal system, then I do see this as a gain or possible gain.

  http://www.snapnetwork.org/
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  Band on the Run

  The Roman Catholic abuse is so widespread. Because so many people are Catholic, they were able to convince legislator and executive branch people to better protect children. The troubling part with the CAtholic problem is not the actual act. The coverup is unconsciable. I doubt Victoria would have acted if only JWs were involved. Many Catholics no longer contribute directly to dioceses. Their lawyers insisted on the letter of the law. They went beyond representing their client zealously. Their actions hurt the Catholic church deeply. You can win battles and lose the war.
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  wobble

  The case is the most interesting one as far as potential goes that has ever happened,

  The problem is that the WT will do their very best to bury this in Victoria, and may well succeed to a great degree, what we need to do is hang fire until the case proper has been dealt with, and then we need to get as much media attention as possible to bring to attention the WT's heartless attitude which consists of covering up what has happened and not bothering to protect children and the vulnerable subsequently.
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  james_woods

  As I see it, winning this not only in Victoria - but also worldwide - would require that the kind of Working With Children backround card law would also have to be passed and enforced in many other countries - particularly in democratic countries world wide. Maybe that shoule be identified as a new goal to come from this.

  That would be a win.

  And, as Blondie indicated, this could be a win if it just protects some innocent JW children.

  Even if it does not "bring down" the WTBTS - which I think is obvious that it will not. Weaken it, probably - but just like the catholics , it will not bring it down.