Lord, to whom would we go away to? ... Who is your mediator?

by ShadesofGrey 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ShadesofGrey

  I am writing up some things, thinking about making some brochures to distribute to JWs. Here is one of the first, as this question is what broke me free. I am playing with the idea of putting the scriptures and watchtower quotes on one page tracts or even billboards, anyway, here you have it:

  John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

  "And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation , the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a “great war cry.” " Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.21
  
  "But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do." Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.27

  "They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov. p.1

  2 Cor. 4: 4 “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.”

  "It is vital that we respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God." Watchtower 1957 June 15 p.370

  Additionally, the February 15, 2009 , Watchtower on page 27, in paragraph 11 states: "Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?"

  Hi! What made me open my eyes? I realized that Jesus Christ was supposed to be my only mediator and that as long as I was a JW that was not the case.

  Someone actually said this in their public talk: Are we well mannered to let others criticize or explain what they think about us? For example if someone says "You do not accept Christ as your mediator", we may be quick to say "Yes I do" but you would be wrong. The Insight book on Mediator clearly shows that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is only a mediator or savior for anointed Christians.

  Please read 1 Timothy 2:5 and 1 Corinthians 11:3 and see how God’s Word compares. “There is one mediator between God and man” “The head of every man is Christ”

  16 Just as the ancient nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God through the mediator Moses, so the nation of spiritual Israel , “the Israel of God,” has a covenant relationship through a mediator. (Galatians 6:16) It is as the apostle Paul wrote to his Christian fellow worker: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5) Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No, he was the mediator between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of their fleshly descendants. Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel , which is limited to only 144,000 members. This spiritual nation is like a little flock of Jehovah’s sheeplike ones.—Romans 9:6; Revelation 7:4. --Worldwide Security under the Prince of Peace, page 10

  So if Christ is the mediator for only the 144,000 then who is the mediator for the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Look at the heading Mediator in the Insight book: He mediates a new covenant between God and those taken into the New Covenant, spiritual Israel. The total number of those is revealed in Revelation as 144,000.(This is actually very wordy, this is common both in their literature and Bible translation. That way people don’t realize what they are actually saying.)

  "In fact, with God's day of judgment so near today, all the world should 'keep silent before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah' and hear what he says through the "little flock" of Jesus' anointed followers and their companions, his "other sheep." (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Annihilation awaits all who will not listen and who thereby set themselves against rule by God's Kingdom." Watchtower 2001 Feb 15 p. 14

  "all of the anointed ones living on earth at any given time constitute 'the faithful and discreet slave'"- w07 11/1 p. 30 par. 12

  “All the while, the Governing Body has also continued to carry the responsibility of overseeing the preaching work, producing Bible study material, and appointing overseers in the branches, districts, circuits, and congregations. These are the Kingdom interests that Christ has committed to the care of the faithful and discreet slave, represented by its Governing Body.” Watchtower 1990 March 15 p. 20

  "We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know. The Governing Body does not keep a list of all partakers, for it does not maintain a global network of anointed ones." - Question From Readers, w2011 8/15 p. 22

  "However, Christians who have truly received this anointing do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the "great crowd" may have." p.23
  "Today, the Governing Body represents the faithful and discreet slave class." Image on p.23 "Similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class. They make up the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses." Watchtower 2009 June 15 pp.23,24

  "The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ." Watchtower 2010 Sep 15 p.23

  Questions FromReaders

  ? IsJesusthe“mediator”onlyforanointedChristians?

  The term “mediator” occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

  Moses was the “mediator” of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel . (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the “mediator of a new covenant” between Jehovah and spiritual Israel , the “Israel of God” that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15 ; 12:24 ; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.

  The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see AidtoBibleUnderstanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under “Mediator”; also God’s“EternalPurpose”NowTriumphingforMan’sGood, page 160, paragraph 10; also TheWatchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading “Leading the Way to a New Covenant”; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading “The New Covenant.”

  So we need to ask ourselves Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, who was the mediator of the Old Covenant?

  Is their a man or group of men that compare to Moses today?

  Who is your mediator?

  Please read 1 Timothy 2:5, Deut. 18:15-20 and Acts 3:17-23

  I hope this helps someone out there, I printed it out for my Sister-in-Law yesterday, but we will see if this is what the Lord chooses for her.

  Basking in the presence of the Lord,

  Shades
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  wobble

  Dear Shades, to be effective as a tool for making JW's question their beliefs, any brochure/tract would need to be very short and succinct. JW's do not read large blocks of text, and have difficulty following an argument. They are too lazy to look up quoted scriptures.

  A quote from their own WT publications showing that they (the WT) do not believe Jesus is mediator for the "Great Crowd of Other Sheep" (from the article in "Insight..." fer example) folowed by a scripture from Timothy say, to show that Christ is mediator for all men, then your question "Who is YOUR mediator ?" should be just enough, any more than that and they will simply toss it as "Apostate material" because it has a lot of text.

  Just add a link to JWFacts.com and the relevant article therein.
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  ShadesofGrey

  Yes, I was thinking for distribution or signs (there is a church right across the street from the KH!) I would have one page the scripture in red followed by a short WT quote.

  It is written now for those already looking.

  I will apply your suggestion. Thank you.
• 

  tec

  John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

  "And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation , the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a “great war cry.” " Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.21

  Whoa... that's a big font!

  If you were going to do a billboard, or a quick and pointed track, I would use this part. I would highlight 'to WHOM' and 'YOU'... have the words of eternal life.

  Then highlight what you already had hightlighted in the WT version.

  Its short and simple and makes its point. It won't do anything to those who don't want to see... but for those who are still open, it could plant a seed.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  jonathan dough

  To whom should we go away? They should try the public library and university libraries. They should go to church if that's not enough.

  As for the New Covenant, can you "prove" that the NC does not apply only to the 144,000 but applies to all Christian believers in general? That's the more important issue and subsumes the mediator issue. This is one of the JWs' biggest weaknesses. For example, the JWs' New Covenant is temporary, lasting roughly 2,000 years. I bet you didn't know that. So how can it be "everlasting" as the Bible teaches? Why would they not want it to be everlasting?

  ii) An everlasting New Covenant would destroy the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation plan during the millennial reign.
  
  iii) An everlasting New Covenant would prevent the JWs from education man to a state of perfection and repeatedly judging him
  
  iv) The Jehovah's Witnesses are unable to eliminate Jesus after the 1,000 year reign if the New Covenant, for which he is the mediator forever, is everlasting
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  ShadesofGrey

  For example, the JWs' New Covenant is temporary, lasting roughly 2,000 years. I bet you didn't know that.

  I have often wondered about the JW doctrine of the thousand year reign. So what happens after that? They seem to not answer that, which is funny considering how much they dislike any mystery.
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  ShadesofGrey

  Sorry about the font, it was a copy and past from MS word.

  Okay, here is an idea for a sign next to the KH: (or a T-shirt to wear to memorial, HA!)

  “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.”(1 Timothy 2:5)

  Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. -- Worldwide Security under the Prince of Peace, page 10

  What do you think of this one? Or maybe this on one side and the one Tammy suggested on the other side?

  Or

  “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.”(1 Timothy 2:5)

  But the Watchtower says: "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. "-- Worldwide Security under the Prince of Peace, page 10
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  Jeffro

  The JW view that a long-dead Jew (who might never have existed at all) is the special magic sky friend of only a subset of their members is only as crazy as other Christians' views of Jesus.
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  jonathan dough

  I have often wondered about the JW doctrine of the thousand year reign

  Since you asked, here is a brief summary of what they believe, including their unbiblical 1,000-year salvation plans, and beyond.

  I. Summary of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teachings.[Home]

  A) The revolving door of ever-changing doctrine[Home]
  
  Every now and then the Jehovah's Witnesses make significant changes to their doctrine that reach to the very core of their belief system. As such, it can be a real challenge to pinpoint exactly what they believe from one year to the next. The changes they make are to be expected given the weakenesses in their dogma and the need to accommodate mountains of theological criticism. Invariably these changes bump up against other tenets of Society doctrine resulting in an ever-growing tangled mass of contradictions. Due to the nature of these shifting sands one should take their asserted beliefs with a grain of salt.
  
  B) The New Testament was written primarily for the 144,000 who alone go to heaven to ultimately rule over all remaining JWs and the resurrected on earth [Home]

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (Reasoning from the Scriptures (Reasoning) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 166). These are the bride of Christ, God’s children, the elect, and often referred to as the “anointed” of Christ (Insight on the Scriptures (Insight), 2 vols. [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1988], 786). The New Testament Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were written primarily for these brothers of Christ. They are specially chosen because they live especially good lives while on earth (Insight, 786-788). Once resurrected to heaven, a process which began in 1918 and will soon be concluded (the first resurrection) (Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand (Revelation Climax), [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 19__] 103, 277) they will become a kingdom of priests and kings who will rule with Christ for one thousand years over humans on earth (Insight, 170, 524, 525).
  
  C) The Great Crowd on earth will engage in perfecting resurrected flesh-and-blood humans to a sinless condition [Home]
  
  This reign will involve their judging resurrected humans during the thousand year reign, and after the thousand year reign when resurrected mankind will undergo a final decisive test before being destroyed forever, or having their names written permanently in God’s book, or scroll, of life (Insight, 251, 788). Whereas the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven as spirit creatures, all other billions of humans worthy of the resurrection during the thousand year reign will be resurrected as corrupt flesh and blood humans with the possibility of immortality on earth (Reasoning, 333-336; Insight, 251). During the thousand year reign the Great Crowd will engage in “perfecting” resurrected humans to a sinless condition enjoyed by Adam and Eve before the fall (Reasoning, 337, 338).
  
  D) The Great Crowd must pass a final test to gain eternal life[Home]
  
  The Great Crowd (or large multitude) is a term found at Revelation 7:9. The Great Crowd are those Jehovah’s Witnesses who survive the Great Tribulation. They do not die, do not need to be resurrected and are declared righteous through faith (Insight, 788) although it appears as though they also must pass a final, decisive test to gain eternal life (Insight., 251). Most Jehovah’s Witnesses today consider themselves to be members of the Great Crowd and according to their interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17 they will always be earthly, not heavenly, subjects of the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God). As to those Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not of the 144,000 and do not survive the Great Tribulation, it is believed they will be resurrected in God’s due time (Insight, 788).

  E) The New Covenant applies only to God, Christ and the 144,000; it shall expire shortly. Only the 144,000 have their sins forgiven from Calvary to the 1,000 year reign[Home]
  
  The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus Christ died and rose to heaven to sit on God’s throne he began to reign only as king over his congregation of 144,000 followers who at the time were still earthly subjects of this spiritual kingdom (Insight, 524). This rule began with Christ’s blood sacrifice which was initiated pursuant to the much-anticipated New Covenant which replaced the old Mosaic Law covenant (Law covenant). This New Covenant, to which only God, Christ and the 144,000 are parties, will expire shortly after the last of the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven (Insight, 524). The only people who have their sins forgiven through Christ's blood sacrifice from the time of Adam until the beginning of the thousand year reign are the 144,000 (Insight, 736).

  F) Pre-incarnate Christ was just a created angel, not eternal, and while on earth nothing more than a man, a human. Jesus returned to earth in 1914 (the parousia)[Home]
  
  The real kingdom of God, a much larger, expansive and lengthier kingdom, began in 1914 (the 1914 kingdom) when Christ supposedly sat on the throne to begin his rule over mankind (Insight, 169). Jesus, being a mere angel (Reasoning, 218) created hundreds of millions of years ago, only receives a subsidiary share of this kingdom of God (Insight, 169). 1914 A.D. is arguably the most important date in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief system because it is the year that Jesus returned, or arrived (Great Man, ch. 133, 2; Reasoning, 344), to earth. This was the invisible Second Coming of Christ, or “parousia.” It also heralded the beginning of the first of three judgment days.

  G) The Jehovah's Witnesses were taught they're separating the sheep from the goats in their door-to-door ministry [Home]
  We are currently in the first judgment day period. Under the guidance of the remaining earthly anointed 144,000, the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses were taught that they were separating the earth’s sheep and goats through their door-to-door ministry (The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived) (Great Man) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1991] chapter 111, 12-15). This fundamental doctrine, however, changed in 1995. The separation of sheep and goats has been postponed, for now, until a time after the Great Tribulation begins (The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1995, pg. 23). The sheep join God’s one and only earthly organization, thus becoming members of the Great Crowd (if they survive the Great Tribulation) and earn the opportunity to live life everlasting; all the goats, those who do not heed their invitation, will be destroyed forever during the Great Tribulation and Armageddon with no prospect of resurrection (Ibid.).

  H. Only the Great Crowd survives Armageddon. The Great Crowd will restore the earth to a paradise and educate resurrected sinners to a state of perfection subject to even more laws and regulations; those to be re-educated include the patriarchs, Moses, etc.[Home]
  
  The only humans who survive the Great Tribulation and Armageddon, where all the enemies of God are destroyed, are members of the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ibid.); no one else. Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ and the 144,000 over the earth’s Great Crowd and the righteous and unrighteous - at least those who merit the resurrection during the thousand years (Reasoning, 339-340). This general resurrection during the millennium is the second resurrection according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of the tasks of the Great Crowd during this peaceful thousand year reign is to restore post-apocalyptic earth to a paradise-like condition. The Great Crowd also assists in educating the 20 billion resurrected dead to the will of God, to get to know Jesus, and to live in accordance with new laws and regulations revealed through the Law Scrolls of God opened at Revelation 20:12 (Insight, 788). The purpose of educating the resurrected is to lift them to a state of perfection on par with Adam and Eve’s sinless state of perfection they enjoyed before rebelling against Jehovah God (Ibid.).

  I) The Great Crowd and resurrected humans are not judged for any sins committed in this life, but only for sins committed during the 1,000 year reign, and after[Home]
  
  The second judgment day period occurs during the thousand year reign. “Perfected” humans, now only corruptible rather than corrupt when resurrected, are tested and judged based not on their deeds and works in their previous lives (the one we experience today) but on their deeds during the thousand year reign (Ibid.). They believe this because all men are allegedly acquitted of sin in this life and pay for their sins with the wages of death (Insight, 788; Reasoning, 338). Therefore, the only deeds or sins for which they can be put on judgment for are those committed during the thousand year reign, and their conduct during the final test after the thousand years.

  J. Salvation can be gained only by passing a final test[Home]
  
  The final test of their fidelity begins after the thousand year reign, the third judgment day, when those remaining perfected humans are confronted with the unleashing of Satan from the abyss and all which that entails. If they pass the test successfully they will have their names permanently written in the scroll, or book, of life. If they fail they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death, that is, eternal destruction (Insight, 251).

  Thereafter, the services of Christ, the angel, are no longer required. He is no longer needed as a helper in terms of a propitiatory sacrifice, nor as a legal intermediary between God and man. Accordingly, he is dispensed with in this regard (Insight, 170).

  The Jehovah's Witnesses believe with all sincerity that they "have the truth" and "are in the truth." However given the very significant repudiation of past doctrines that have formed the essential core of their beliefs for over one hundred years it is doubtful they can make that claim. If their "truth" is not the "truth" by their own admission, then their theories were false.

  Jeffro, IMO, the idea that a human being who is not being influence by evil (since in their mind evil as a noun does not exist) would come on a thread and bother someone who is trying to rescue people from a destructive cult is also crazy.

  Jeffro: If you're trying to save them from a cult, why not focus on actual problems rather than quibbling about alternative interpretations of doctrines that cannot be proven either way.

  She's not quibbling, for one thing. For another, it's doctrine that drew many in to begin with, and it's doctrine, or exposure to false doctrine, that helps many escape; they don't leave because they feel they are mentally, intellectually, trapped by the JWs' lawyers' pseudo-logic. Furthermore, as for core doctrine, much can be proven wrong; it's beyond reasonable debate among objective individuals with a modicum of intelligence. Much of their doctrine can be proven wrong to a mathematical certainty, beyond reasonable doubt.

  607 and 144,000 are good examples.

  http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

  http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html
• 

  ShadesofGrey

  Or maybe this on one side and the one Tammy suggested on the other side?

  “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.”-- 1 Timothy 2:5

  But the Watchtower says: "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. " -- Worldwide Security under the Prince of Peace , page 10

  So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. --John 6:67

  "the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation ," Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.21