Some thoughts on Zechariah 7:1-5 as it relates to 607 vs. 587 B.C.

by sd-7 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    (Zechariah 7:1-5) 7 Furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of Da·ri’us the king the word of Jehovah occurred to Zech·a·ri’ah, on the fourth [day] of the ninth month, [that is,] in Chis'lev. 2 And Beth'el proceeded to send Shar·e'zer and Re'gem-mel'ech and his men to soften the face of Jehovah, 3 saying to the priests who belonged to the house of Jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: “Shall I weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way I have done these O how many years?” 4 And the word of Jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: 5 “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When YOU fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth [month] and in the seventh [month], and this for seventy years, did YOU really fast to me, even me?

    --This scripture shows that the fourth year of Darius (Darius the Great) was apparently 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. The Israelites were mourning in the fifth and seventh months of the year, for 70 years. The fifth month was when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, and the seventh month was when Gedaliah, who had been appointed by the Babylonians over the people left in Judah, was assassinated. (2 Kings 25:8, 25) The phrasing of the question asked by Sharezer and Regem-melech indicates that the Israelites had been fasting (and apparently they weren't quite sure how many years they'd been fasting, as the question says "O how many years?"), and were now asking Zechariah if they should continue fasting as they had previously been doing up until this time. Zechariah’s response indicates that it had been 70 years since the Israelites had been fasting in the fifth and seventh months.

    Note that Zechariah’s response does NOT mention the 70-year prophecy of Jeremiah; he merely says that they had been fasting for seventy years. Therefore, in the absence of a mention of Jeremiah’s prophecy, we find a lack of evidence to support the notion that this is the same 70 years that Jeremiah foretold. Again, remember what Jeremiah actually said:

    (Jeremiah 25 :8-11) . . ., 9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez′zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. 10 And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’

    Jeremiah mentions that they will SERVE seventy years, not be in exile 70 years. In any case, in every other instance where Jeremiah’s prophecy is mentioned, Jeremiah himself is mentioned. (2 Chron. 36:21, 22; Ezra 1:1; Dan. 9:1, 2) In this case, he is not mentioned. Therefore, this is a different 70-year period, as the Israelites have not been serving the King of Babylon since the Babylonians had been conquered in 539 B.C., which means the 70 years foretold by Jeremiah have long been over.

    Furthermore, remember, in Zech. 7:1-5, men have been sent to ask Zechariah if they should CONTINUE fasting. If they have been fasting since 607 B.C., then by the time they ask Zechariah, then 90 years, not 70, will have passed by this time. Why would Zechariah then say they have been fasting for 70 years if in fact they had been fasting for 90? Or if they had in fact stopped fasting at 537 B.C., this question makes even less sense, as they would have ceased fasting for 20 years, and then asked if they should resume fasting--which is not what the question says at all anyway. The question seems to suggest that this fasting was a recent, continuing activity, not something that hadn’t happened in 20 years. This scripture makes absolutely no sense if Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C. Rather than supporting that notion, this scripture actually destroys it. Unless we’re going to assert that Darius the Great reigned in 537 B.C., which even the Society doesn’t try to assert:

    ***it-1p.583Darius***

    It is particularly with regard to the rebuilding of the temple at Jerusalem that Darius Hystaspis figures in the Bible record. The temple foundation was laid in 536 B.C.E., but rebuilding work came under ban in 522 B.C.E. and “continued stopped until the second year of the reign of Darius” (520 B.C.E.). (Ezr 4:4, 5, 24) During this year the prophets Haggai and Zechariah stirred up the Jews to renew the construction, and the work got under way again. (Ezr 5:1, 2; Hag 1:1, 14, 15; Zec 1:1)

    Since even the Society acknowledges that the second year of Darius was 520 B.C., we can reasonably conclude that his fourth year would be about 518/517 B.C., which would be almost exactly 70 years since 587 B.C., the historically accepted dated for Jerusalem’s destruction. Starting from that date, Zechariah 7:1-5 makes a lot more sense.

    --sd-7

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    And as an afterthought:

    (Jeremiah29:1-10)29 And these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the remainder of the older men of the exiled people and to the priests and to the prophets and to all the people, whom Neb·u·chad·nez′zar had carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, 2 after Jec·o·ni′ah the king and the lady and the court officials, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the craftsmen and the builders of bulwarks had gone forth from Jerusalem. 3 It was by the hand of El·a′sah the son of Sha′phan and Gem·a·ri′ah the son of Hil·ki′ah, whom Zed·e·ki′ah the king of Judah sent to Babylon to Neb·u·chad·nez′zar the king of Babylon, saying: 4 “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said to all the exiled people, whom I have caused to go into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 ‘Build houses and inhabit [them], and plant gardens and eat their fruitage. 6 Take wives and become father to sons and to daughters; and take wives for YOUR own sons and give YOUR own daughters to husbands, that they may give birth to sons and to daughters; and become many there, and do not become few. 7 Also, seek the peace of the city to which I have caused YOU to go into exile, and pray in its behalf to Jehovah, for in its peace there will prove to be peace for YOU yourselves. 8 For this is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: “Let not YOUR prophets who are in among YOU and YOUR practicers of divination deceive YOU, and do not YOU listen to their dreams that they are dreaming. 9 For ‘it is in falsehood that they are prophesying to YOU in my name. I have not sent them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”’” 10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’

    According to this scripture, Jeremiah addresses King Jeconiah (Jehoiachin) as being already in exile, and indicates to them that their service to the king of Babylon—as service is what Jeremiah himself says at Jeremiah 25:11--is going to continue until the 70 years are fulfilled. This is about 10 or 11 years BEFORE Jerusalem is destroyed, yet Jeconiah (Jehoiachin) is addressed as already being in exile. Thus we see that the exile started well before Jerusalem was destroyed. Hence, the 70 year prophecy must have started long before Jerusalem was destroyed, or else this prophecy means that people already in exile in Babylon have to wait ANOTHER 10 YEARS for the prophecy to START. That would make no sense at all.

    Also, “seventy years at Babylon” is stated only in the New World Translation and the King James Version but in more recent times it has been established that “at Babylon” is not a proper translation of the Hebrew here. Most other Bibles render this verse as “seventy years for Babylon”.

    (I mentioned a little of this in my 10-page essay I posted awhile ago, but felt a need to write about Zechariah 7:1-5 after reading, I guess it was a Rolf Furuli argument using Zech. 7:1-5 as PROOF that 607 B.C. was the right date.)

    --sd-7

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    Sorry, the formatting is a bit ugly on this. Maybe I better try and fix it up a bit...but I doubt anyone but me is thinking about this sort of thing on Christmas Eve...

    --sd-7

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    You're right. The fourth year of Darius ... the fourth day of Chislev, the ninth month, was November, 518 B.C. (NAB notes). Count back 70 years brings us to 588. The only way 607 would be correct is if the fourth year of Darius was in 537, or the 70 years was actually 90 years. It's a different 70 years from that mentioned in Jeremiah 25:11. They simply continued to fast and mourn the destruction of Jerusalem, etc. from 587. It says nothing of the original prophecy. For 607 to work, the fourth year of Darius would have to be 537 BC, and Babylon would have to fall in 541 or thereabouts, right? Actually earlier than that to account for Cyrus' reign if Darius followed Cyrus. The JWs would have to throw out the history books, again.

    What is Furuli's argument?

    Also, even "at Babylon" proves the JWs wrong because that alone states the 70 years ended while the exiles were still in, or "at" Babylon, not when they returned to Palestine as the JWs teach incorrectly in their "Return Theory," which means they fall short of 70 years. Either way they are wrong. "For Babylon" is more correct, though.

    http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-3.html#G

    http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-4.html#H

    And if, for the sake of argument, it was Darius the Mede rather than Darius the Great, and if this Darius the Mede ruled contemporaneously with Cyrus beginning in 539 when Babylon fell, then the fourth year is 535 BC and counting back 70 years takes one to 605, not 607. JWs are again wrong.

    The fourth year CAN'T be 537, which is what they need, because that would mean Babylon fell in 541.

    The fourth year CAN'T be 536, because that would mean Babylon fell in 540.

    The fourth year CAN'T be 535, because even though it means Babylon fell in 539, adding 70 years takes them to 605, two years short of 607.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    My Dad's solution was to say that when Zechariah uses the "fourth year of Da·ri’us the king", he is using a different Da·ri’us the king.

    When I asked if he seriously expected me to believe that the author was stupid enough to date his works by using two different kings of the same name without distinguishing between them, he said "Yes!"

    Trying to have an intelligent conversation with him on anything remotely religious is just a total waste of time.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    My Dad's solution was to say that when Zechariah uses the "fourth year of Da·ri’us the king", he is using a different Da·ri’us the king.

    Which King Darius did he have in mind?

  • ssn587
    ssn587

    Black Sheep your dad's solution is one many jdubs have ignore the facts, go with the wt. They refuse to listen to anything that disagrees with the garbage put out by the society. They remind me of rats in the trash, ready to eat garbage while the local restaurant (apostates in the know) are serving truth (filet mignon).

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    Which King Darius did he have in mind?

    It makes no difference, Jonathan.

    Dad was agreeing that an author of his Bible had been stupid.

    Black Sheep your dad's solution is one many jdubs have ignore the facts, go with the wt.

    This guy goes further than that. I can get him arguing against current WT doctrine and rules to save face for the bOrg. He has absolutely no idea how much egg he has on his face. No JW who has ever heard us 'at it' has ever tried to back up anything he has said. They all want to shut up and hope it goes away.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    Which King Darius did he have in mind?

    It makes no difference, Jonathan.

    Dad was agreeing that an author of his Bible had been stupid.

    I don't understand. When you pin him down and ask which Darius he is referring to, what does he say?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    I don't understand. When you pin him down and ask which Darius he is referring to, what does he say?

    He doesn't produce any evidence to back up his claim. There just has to be another one. Just like the author of the passage has to be stupid enough to confuse his target audience by using this other one.

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