Some thoughts on Zechariah 7:1-5 as it relates to 607 vs. 587 B.C.

by sd-7 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Larsinger58

  Okay. First of all, the Bible's NB chronology does not work with the secular chronology. The Bible's and Josephus' chronology begins the 70 years of Jeremiah with the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II and ends it in the 1st of Cyrus. Thus you have a period of 74 years from year 19 to the 1st of Cyrus. The Bible in Zechariah 1 establishes that 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem ends in the 2nd year of Darius. Zechariah 7 confirms that 70 years of mourning over Gedaliah ends in the 4th year of Darius. This at least establishes that Gedaliah died the year following the fall of Jerusalem, thus in year 20, and began to be mourned the following year, which was year 21 of Nebuchadnezzar II. The remnant of Jews then fled down to Egypt. Jehovah instructed them by Jeremiah to return to Judea, which they refused, after which Jehovah said he would send Nebuchadnezzar to kill them and only a few "escaped ones" would return to Judea after that. (Jeremiah 44:14,28)

  Josephus records this last campaign by Nebuchadnezzar II as occurring in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar which included the entire region of the land of Israel at which time he deported the Jews in Egypt into Babylon, obviously treking through Judea to fulfill Jeremiah 44:14, 28. According to 2 Chronicles 36:20 and Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1, it was these last poor ones who had run down to Egypt and "escaped from the sword" who made up those of the last deportation (Jer. 52:30) who would serve Nebuchadnezzar II and "his sons" for a period of 70 years, ending the 1st of Cyrus.

  Thus per both the Bible and Josephus, there is a 74-year gap from the fall of Jerusalem down to the 1st of Cyrus, and a 72-year gap from the mourning over Gedalliah in the seventh month and the 1st of Cyrus.

  So now getting back to Zechariah 7, it is a legitimate question to ask WHICH "DARIUS" IS THIS? DARIUS THE MEDE OR DARIUS I (THE GREAT)?

  If we follow the Bible, this would be a reference to DARIUS THE MEDE, because the Jews would have still been in exile 72 years after the fall of Jerusalem, which falls in year 4 of "Darius," meaning two things: 1) The Jews were still in exile and would be for another 2 years, and 2) Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II.

  Our confirmation that the Jews were still in exile in the 4th year of Darius is found in verse 7 where it says: "Should you not obey the words that Jehovah called out by means of the former prophets, while Jersalem happened to be inhabited...?" So Jerusalem was not inhabited in year 4 of this Darius, thus confirming the Jews were still in exile, thus confirming this is a reference to Darius the Mede and not Darius the Great.

  This means the WTS, COJ and so many others trying to link these references to 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem ending in year 2 and 70 years after the mourning for Gedaliah in month seven in year 4 of Darius the Great is both erroneous and inapplicable. This leads us to a new reality and critical truth regarding the Bible's chronology of the NB Period and that of popular secular history which date the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of the Jews in 537 BCE, both of which secular and the WTS prescribe to, and that is this: The Bible's and Josephus' NB Period is 26 years longer than that of secular history. The two chronologies are completely incompatible.

  Does this mean the Babylonians recorded the wrong history? No, not at all. They recorded the correct history. But the records that survive for this period did not come from the Neo-Babylonian Period, but from the Persian Period, during the reign of Darius II. We know this for a fact because the Babylonian Chronicle clearly states it was "copied" in the 22nd year of Darius II (I know, yet another "Darius"!). The presumption, therefore, at this point (or maybe it's a confirmation) is that the Persians revised the Babylonian records, removing 26 years from the Babylonian kings in an effort to expand the reign of one or more of the Persian kings.

  This is apparent from Ezra 6:14,15 where the Bible limits the rule of Darius I to six years. Darius I died in his sixth year, the year the temple was completed. Secular history, which comes from the Greek historians, claims Darius I ruled for some 36 years. So you have another direct contradiction between the Bible and secular history. A big mess. But there's no way out of it.

  The WTS and COJ and others, as some here, try to somehow harmonize the revised secular history with that of the Bible using various theories, but it never works as we can see from the discussion here. But it does work when you use the Josephus timeline, which agrees with the Bible's chronology, where the 70 years begin with the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. Again, this would confirm four things not recognized by false chronologists like the WTS and those trying to authenticate the Persian-revised NB records which Persians also paid to influenced Greek historians to revise and harmonize their history with the revised Persian history:

  1) The Jews were still in exile during the reign of Darius the Mede.

  2) Dairus the Mede ruled for a full 6 years before the 1st of Cyrus.

  3) Darius the Mede and Cyrus were never co-rulers over Babylon.

  4) Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II.

  SUMMARY: There is no way to harmonize many scriptures in the Bible with the current NB timeline which is 26 years shorter than the Bible's timeline, as well as 26 years shorter than Josephus' timeline, both of which begin the 70 years of Jeremiah in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. There is no mystery when either the Bible or traditional Jewish history begin the 70 years of Jeremiah. It is apparent, though, that this is an attempt to establish that premise since historians discussing the 70 years seldom mention Josephus or twist Zechariah 7 into applying to Darius I rather than Dariius the Mede. When you follow the Bible or Josephus, you have perfect harmony with Zech 7 which shows the Jews still in exile and Jerusalem still desolated in year 4 of Darius the Mede, some 72 years after the fall of Jerusalem. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether Babylon's domination over the first nation it conquered just happened to be close to 70 years based on the revised chronology. In fact, Babylon's revised chronology could work out to be exactly 70 years over the nations. It would not affect the Biblical reference that those last deported out of Egypt must serve Nebuchadnezzar and his sons for 70 years, one of those sons being none other than Darius the Mede who ruled for a full six years before Cyrus became the official king over all of Persia, including Babylon, beginning his rulership with year 1 at that time, and releasing many peoples back to the homeland, including the Jews.

  Nice discussion. But you need to include ALL the chronology theories not just two erroneous ones to find harmony. The relative chronology of the Bible and Josephus is 26 years longer than the popular secular history. You can ignoe this factor if you want, but it will not change. At this point, revisionism by the Jews or the pagans or both is inevitable.

  Cheers.

  LS
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  I forget where I read it....but I am pretty sure the society's "answer" is that they fasted for 70 years from 607 til 537 and then "evidently" continued to fast an additional 20 years....with no one really knowing why.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  He doesn't produce any evidence to back up his claim. There just has to be another one. Just like the author of the passage has to be stupid enough to confuse his target audience by using this other one.

  I asked somebody once why Daniel used different dating systems, where Jehoiakim's 3rd year really referred to his 11th year and Neb's 2nd year really referred to his 20th, and yet Belshazzar's 1st and 3rd years really were his 1st and 3rd years, and Cyrus' 3rd year really was his 3rd year, etc. There was no coherent answer.
• 

  sd-7

  But you need to include ALL the chronology theories not just two erroneous ones to find harmony.

  You first, pal. Except for the whole...uh,

  Posting an off-topic comment.

  My point was not to debate every conceivable chronology theory, just to point out the Watchtower Society's obviously problematic approach to the subject as it pertains to Zechariah 7:1-5. It's probable that figuring out a theory that is most certainly and completely correct would be quite difficult if not impossible.

  And in the end, pretty irrelevant. Either way, it's a work in progress, and

  First of all, the Bible's NB Larsinger's chronology does not work with the secular chronology.

  <--Better.

  If we follow the Bible Larsinger, this would be a reference to DARIUS THE MEDE, because

  The Bible says "Darius" in Zechariah 7:1-5. It doesn't say "Darius the Mede". If it did, this'd be a different discussion altogether. If we follow what the Bible actually says, unless you have some sort of tangible proof that the words "Darius the Mede" were written in this verse, I have to disagree. The other problem is that this is clearly a time period that matches with Ezra, as he talks about how Zechariah was encouraging the Jews at this specific time period, and Ezra at least implies if nothing more that considerable time has passed since the Jews got back to Judah. So it's not really sound reasoning to say that this is Darius the Mede when it's clear that the Darius being talked about didn't show up for some time, according to Ezra.

  But that's a nice shot, to be sure. Keep tryin'.

  --sd-7
• 

  sd-7

  What is Furuli's argument?

  Not even sure anymore--I can't find it anymore, but it was somewhere on onlytruegod.org/jwstrs. Something like that. Not sure why I bothered...maybe someone else can find it.

  --sd-7
• 

  Jeffro

  and apparently they weren't quite sure how many years they'd been fasting, as the question says "O how many years?"

  Actually, no that expression doesn't indicate that they weren't sure how long they'd been fasting. When a question appears in the Bible in the sense of 'how long?', it is almost exclusively used to express frustration or impatience about the circumstances being endured or looking forward to some future event. (The same expressions are often used in English to convey the same meaning.)

  The fasts in the fifth and seven months commerated the destruction of the temple and death of Gedaliah, respectively. Those events happened in 587 BCE, which is very well attested by much archeological evidence. The setting of Zechariah 7:1-5 is the fourth year of Darius, which would be Nisan 518 to Nisan 517 BCE (Darius ruled 522 - 486 BCE; Zechariah didn't count accession years), during the 70th year since the fall of the temple. Zechariah 7:1 gives the month as Chislev (November/December), after the fasts had been observed for that 70th year. Therefore Sharezer and Regem-melech were asking about the fasts for the coming 71st year. This is the same period that is seen in a 'vision' by 'Berechiah the son of Iddo the prophet' at Zechariah 1:12; the setting of the 'vision' is towards the end of the 70 years, but, according to Zechariah, the vision is reported two years prior (1:7).

  This is not the same period as is mentioned at Jeremiah 25:11-12 (or Jeremiah 29:10, Daniel 9:2, Chronicles 36:21) which referred to all the nations serving the king of Babylon. That period ran from 609 BCE (when Babylon captured Assyria's final capital, Harran) until 539 BCE (when Babylon's king was 'called to account').

  Regarding your afterthought about Jeremiah 29:10, I have frequently pointed out on this forum and elsewhere that the context of that verse makes no sense in the JW chronology. As you correctly point out, this was several years before the fall of Jerusalem, and it makes no sense to tell the Jews who were already in exile that they would be there for 70 years starting from some unstated future event. To further confirm that the Jews did not correlate their exile with the fall of Jerusalem and its temple, see Ezekiel 40:1.
• 

  jonathan dough

  From Paradise Restored to Mankind -- by Theocracy (1972), p. 130ff: an old Narkissos post.

  18 "So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: ‘O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?’"—Zechariah 1:12. 19 To some minds, according to what was said by the angel, it appeared that Jehovah’s denunciation of "these seventy years" was still continuing against Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah. This was due to the fact that the rebuilding of his temple had been neglected for the past seventeen years. He had had very much indignation against their fathers who suffered exile because of profaning the former temple that had been built by King Solomon. Now, in the eighth month (Heshvan) of the year 520 B.C.E. Jehovah had warned the repatriated Jewish remnant to avoid suffering divine indignation through becoming like their fathers and not returning to Jehovah with zeal for full worship of Him through a rebuilt temple. (Zechariah 1:1-6)

  In the light of this we are to understand the outcry of the angel according to what these things might indicate to him regarding Jerusalem and the other cities of repopulated Judah. 20 The angel’s mention of these "seventy years" calls to mind the seventy years mentioned by the prophet Jeremiah. During those seventy years the nations of Judah and Israel must serve the dynasty of kings of Babylon, at the end of which seventy years Jehovah was to call the erroneous conduct of the king of Babylon and of the Chaldeans to account and He would punish them therefor. (Jeremiah 25:11-13) So did Jehovah’s angel mean that those seventy years had not yet ended, or that they had just now ended? This could not historically be true. Why not? Because about twenty years before this (in 539 B.C.E.) Jehovah had used Cyrus the Great of Persia to overthrow Babylon as a world power and about two years later, in 537 B.C.E., Jehovah moved Cyrus who was acting as the king of Babylon to let the Jewish exiles leave Babylon and return to Jerusalem to rebuild Jehovah’s temple.—Ezra 1:1 to 2:2; 2 Chronicles 36:20-23. 21

  Furthermore, the land of Judah was to keep a "sabbath, to fulfill seventy years." (2 Chronicles 36:21) How? By lying as a "desolate waste without man and domestic animal," it having been "given into the hand of the Chaldeans." (Jeremiah 32:43; 33:10-12) Both the prophet Zechariah and the angels knew that those seventy years of utter desolation of the land of Judah and Jerusalem without man and domestic animal had ended in the year 537 B.C.E. when the Jewish remnant returned from Babylon and reoccupied the land, they being reported back in their cities in the seventh month (Tishri) of that year. (Ezra 3:1, 2) Instead of its lying as a desolate waste any longer, crops began to be raised in the land, as the prophet Haggai reports seventeen years later. (Haggai 1:6-11; 2:16, 17) So those seventy years were long past! 22

  If, at the time of Zechariah’s first vision, those seventy years were still continuing or were just now over, why would the angel, knowing what he did, speak as he did? Since he knew that the time period was definitely seventy years long, why would he say: "O Jehovah of armies, how long?" (Zechariah 1:12) Why, away back in the first year of Darius the Mede after the overthrow of Babylon in 539 B.C.E., the prophet Daniel "discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years." (Daniel 9:1, 2) And certainly Daniel verified the number of years, not seventeen long years before they were due to end, but immediately before the end of the seventy years in the first year of the reign of King Cyrus the Persian.

  Thus the aged prophet Daniel, who lived at least into "the third year of Cyrus the king of Persia," could know that he had calculated the length of the time period correctly. (Daniel 10:1) Hence those "seventy years" did not extend to the time when Zechariah got his first vision, in 519 B.C.E. 23 Be it remembered, also, that those unforgettable seventy years were the first seventy years of the Gentile Times, "the appointed times of the nations." So, when those seventy years ended in 537 B.C.E., the Gentile Times still continued on for Jerusalem to be trampled on by the Gentile nations. (Luke 21:24) Apparently, then, the angel who cried out, "O Jehovah of armies, how long?" was referring back to that former period of seventy years as an illustration of Jehovah’s denunciation of his chosen people. He was asking whether Jehovah’s denunciation of them was being renewed because of their long neglect toward His temple. And so the angel was asking how long it would yet be before Jehovah would show mercy to Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah. The prophet Zechariah was also interested in knowing this. We, also!
• 

  jonathan dough

  Scholar the JW apologist wrote a few years ago:

  all of these texts speak of a definite, singular seventy year period pertaining not ever to Babylon but to Judah, Jerusale, and its people with a definite beginning and end which was known to those who were involved.

  scholar JW

  Zechariah absolutely demonstrates that there is only one period of seventy years for Judah specified in the entire OT.The context of both chapters proves that the seventy years was that past momentous event known to Zechariah and the now returned people.

  Anyone can make a statement, but can he prove it? I think it's clear the OT speaks of at least three 70-year-periods. One fixed 70 years does not fit chronologically whatsoever.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  What is Furuli's argument?

  Basically, that the 70 years in Zechariah relate to the same 70 year period as in Jeremiah, 2 Chronicles and Daniel, which period ended with the repatriation of the Jews (see pp. 87-89 of his Chronology, Vol. 1 book).
• 

  Jeffro

  jonathan dough:

  Anyone can make a statement, but can he prove it? I think it's clear the OT speaks of at least three 70-year-periods. One fixed 70 years does not fit chronologically whatsoever.

  If we leave out the periods of seventy years mentioned at Genesis 5:12, Genesis 11:26 and Psalms 90:10, then the Bible speaks of two periods of 70 years.

  1. A period during which Babylon was the dominant world power, referred to at 2 Chronicles 36:21, Isaiah 23:15,17, Jeremiah 25:11-12, Jeremiah 29:10 and Daniel 9:2. This period ran from 609 BCE (Babylon conquers Assyrian capital, Harran) until 539 BCE (Medo-Persian empire conquers Babylon).
  2. A period during which Jews fasted over the temple and the death of governor Gedaliah, referred to at Zechariah 1:12 and Zechariah 7:5. This period ran from 587 BCE (temple destroyed (fifth month) and Gedaliah killed (seventh month)) until 517 BCE (Darius' fourth year).