Larsinger,
I love your posts!! WOW!! Do you have a blog?
Your first post 3yrs ago about 2011& 2012 Harold Camping was very deep.
11,824 Memorial Partakers in 2011
by FrankWTower 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Yohan
I'm guessing the 144,000 in heaven have a DF rate close to the same as the earthly gentile class. WTF is going on up in heaven where so many of the annointed keep getting kicked out and need to be replaced?
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AGuest
Greetings, dear Lar, and peace to you! You know I normally steer clear of your posts but I can't today because I have to set straight some things you are posting most erroneously. As always, I do so in the spirit of Priscilla and Aquila, who expounded the way of God more accurately to Apollos, as man filled with spirit but not being fully acquainted with all things that perhaps he could have been at the time. You've posted quite a lot, so take note that this will probably be a lengthy reply. Now, then:
This was prophesied. How the first-hour workers would "murmur" against the 11th-hour workers. Basically, the 1st-hour workers are those who began the work in 1914, but by 1935 it was clear there was another class of workers.
This isn't accurate. The "first-hour" workers started in 30 CE with the outpouring of holy spirit, dear one. When the time comes for payment, some of these will have a problem with the 11th-hour workers because of having had to wait so long to be paid (they thought payment would come in their day... as do the workers every hour after... even today). Their "murmuring" results from the thinking, "Why did WE toil all day... if we weren't going to get paid until LATE in the day... and when you pay others who didn't work as long?!" These bore the brunt of the work, being the first to undergo great opposition, persecution, torture, and death... while the later workers won't have to work so.
Each hour is 7 years so the 3rd-hour workers were apparent 21 years (3x7) after 1914 and thus in 1935 (1914 +21 = 1935). Thus the vineyard workers represent the WTS and their 2-class system, with the earliest ones all being of the anointed and from the 3rd-hour workers to the 11th-hour workers thinking they would get something less. But in reality, ALL the workers get the "penny," which is heavenly calling. That is, even though the "other sheep" expected quite happily to live forever on the earth, once the 11 hours of vineyard work was completed in 1991 (11x7=77, 77+1914=1991), then ALL of the workers, from the last to the first get invited to heaven.
Your dates, and times, and seasons aside (another thread)... an invitation isn't payment. One has to get IN... and take part in the feast, meal, event... for there to be "payment." Payment is not taken away - an invitation can be (revoked). So your calculation that shows the work to be completed in 1991... is negated by your assertion that Christ arrived in 1992. Because the payment is made AFTER the one who pays returns TO make payment. If, then, Christ arrived in 1992... they workers could not have been paid in 1991. Because that would mean they were paid... before the one who paid them ever return TO pay them.
So technically, there should have been an increase in the anointed, especially since 1991-1998, which is the 12th hour, the hour the messiah pays the workers.
Yes, during the 12th hour... when he returns... which is immediately after the tribulation "of those days"... which event has occurred yet. Even so, his return (1) isn't invisible, (2) triggers the first resurrection, along with (3) the metamorphosos of those who belong to him, which two groups are taken to meet him for the marriage. Since none of this has occurred yet... your calculation of the "hours" is off.
But when all this increase in the anointed start showing up, the original anointed, those in charge of the Society, are shocked and not happy with this.
NONE of these are anointed, dear one... and that is what I must share with you, now. I will get to that in a minute.
The fact that the anointed are increasing and that they will not get anything special beyond what as promised disturbs them. So YES! their claim that the anointed, the 144,000 should be dwindling and that no more are being added is a slap in the face of their expectations and interpretation. So it disburbs them the "reality" is not matching their understanding.
We haven't seen such a disturbance, though. To the contrary, they are exhibiting just the opposite. As dear Loz (peace to you!) pointed out, when folks started partaking, say, after the mid-80's or so, there was MUCH opposition; however, since about 2002... there's actually be little opposition. A few "hints" as to the mental state of these... but still counting them. Why? If the WTBTS doesn't believe these are "anointed", why count them? Why not justify away the number? I will get to that, in a minute, as well.
Now keep in mind, the WTS does not understand the vineyard workers parable. They think they are the 11th-hour workers, coming late into the work compared to Chistendom. Their persecution complex see themselves as being murmured against by the 1st-hour workers. But just because the 1st-hour workers murmur against the 11th-hour workers, the master still pays them their wage, after all, they did faithfully carry out the work! Secondly, if the 1th-hour workers are the WTS, who claim they are the only ones going to heaven, what about all the other workers? Who did they represent? They ALL get the penny! Wouldn't they be part of Christendom? So it doesn't work!
No, neither they're analogy nor yours works! Both they and you are utterly negating the work of the first century Body! Christendom didn't come on the seen until the 4th century. The WTBTS didn't come on the scene until the 20th century! What, though, of the work of the Apostles and first disciples? These also get paid, do they not? If the first hour is 1914 (as YOU state) or with the Nicene Council or thereabouts (as the WTBTS states)... what HOUR did the first centuries workers belong to?
Finally, check Isa 6:13 which describes the "root" of a tree being spared from a tree chopped down. The tree represents the kingdom seats. The chopping down of the tree represent the Jewish branches that were lopped off. But the remnant of the Jews making up the root were left. Thus a remnant of Jews remain to fulfill the Abrahamic promise and Isa 6:13 assigns the root as 1/10th of the entire tree. The lopped off branches, of course, are replaced by gentiles, "wild olives", but the root remains Jewish.
Goodness, no, dear one. The TREE... is Christ, the Tree of Life, the True Vine, the Root of Jesse... Sprout! The branches represent Israel, including but not limited to the Jews. Most of Israel (including the Jews) was lopped off... so that "branches" from the nations could be grafted in (see Romans Chapter 11). However, a tenth OF THE BRANCHES remained. That tenth does not represent the root/stump, however. That root/stump was and is Christ (the "ROOT" of Jesse). Although most of the BRANCHES were lopped off... the TREE still remained; it was not entirely uprooted.
"And though a tenth remain in it,
it will be burned again ,
like a terebinth or an oak,
whose stump remains
when it is felled.”
The holy seed is its stump ."That holy seed, dear one... is Christ:
“I am the true vine , and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches . Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned ." John 15:1-6
Thus the 144,000 are actually all NATURAL JEWS, 12K from each tribe.
Dear one, the 144,000 don't come from "each tribe" of the Jews, natural or otherwise. The Jews are only ONE tribe (well, actually two, Judah and Benjamin) from among ISRAEL. John saw 12,000 from each tribe "from among the sons of ISRAEL". NOT solely from among the sons of JUDAH. Why do you all keep utterly dismissing the other 10 tribes??!! Now, you might say, like some, that when speaking of the Jews "we mean" Israel. But that's not the case! The 10-tribe kingdom of Israel became the enemy of its brother, the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah. And Judah (the Jews) did all in its power to wipe the memory of these off the face of the earth! So, while "Jews" may mean "all Israel" to SOME... it does not mean so to the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. It means that Judah's love for his brothers... is wanting.
If this is only 1/10th or 10%, then the entire number to be called would be 10X 144K which is 1,440,000! When Christ arrives and calls those invited to the wedding, many beg off and there are many seats thus left to be filled.
That is not the meaning of the 1/10th, dear one. It is not meaning that 1/10th WOULD remain, but that even IF 1/10th remained... the "tree" will still be burned again! It is using the reasoning between JAH and Abraham, as to Sodom and Gomorrah. There, JAH promised that if ten, even five righteous persons remained in the city He would not bring destruction upon. Here, He is saying that even if 1/10th of Israel remained... which is a LOT of people... the Tree will STILL be burned.
What is this in reference to? Some would think perhaps the Holocaust. And while that would seem like a likely fulfillment... it is not. No, it is referring to a "tribulation" that will come upon that Tree yet again. This event, dear one, has not yet occurred... and will never occur again once it does. But it is coming.
So the increase in the anointed, which is just a small portion of the entire calling, that is, just those who are JWs (remember Christ sent out TEN slaves and the WTS is just the one "evil slave" organization.)
Again, this negates your rendition of the "hours." Because if ten slaves were sent out and the WTBTS represent only one... then the first hour could NOT have been 1914. Because all of the slaves get paid... and these other organizations do, as well. Even so, NO "evil" slave gets paid, dear one. Indeed, Christ called those who got paid "friend". The evil slave is to assume he will receive NOTHING, but be cast OUT.
So the increase is certainly viable. it represents those who are JWs who believe they have the heavenly calling, which is perfectly possible. 1,440,000 seats have to be filled, not just 144,000.
I have to disagree. While we can be certain that at least 144,000 from among the sons of Israel will be filled, WE cannot know how many OTHER seats... from those of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and peoples... including the REST of Israel (who are not of those "sealed")... because ALL Israel will be saved... will amount to. We can't know because it isn't a number dictated by math or calculations... but by time. It is based on whatever number has gotten "on" the "ark [of the covenant]"... by the time the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, closed the "Door"... (access to) Christ. John 6:44; 10:9
Even so, as you note, the original workers, the original anointed, are a bit miffed and confused about this. It's a surprise to them that Christ is invited those of the other sheep into the kingdom! But this prophesied "murmuring" by the original anointed was prophesied. At the very least it confirms their "surprise" that suddenly there are many more anointed.
You have two things mixed up, dear one: your timing... and that these are "anointed." Again, I will explain to all in a sec.
Now those still partaking with the WTS are those of the anointed who do not fully understand that Christ arrived in 1992 and after eating his first passover on April 6, 1993, there was no need for further partaking since he had returned. The Lord's Supper was a memorial until he returned. So many who have the full understanding don't partake, even if they remain witnesses.
Christ hasn't returned, yet, dear one. Else, the first resurrection and changing would have taken place. The tribulation would have occurred. Satan would be abyssed. Etc., etc., etc. Those who recognize that he hasn't do what HE said to do: "KEEP doing this, in remembrance of me." You, though, like the WTBTS, have simply come up with yet another way to "shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men." Like them, you have simply contrived yet another way to stop people from eating from the Tree of Life... and drinking from the Rock-Mass. WHY??
So those partaking now would be part of those who are considered "old winekins." Christ does not put "new wine" into the "old wineskins." This means there are two groups of Christians, some who have the advanced understading and those who are still accepted who have an outdated or dim understanding. Thus those now partaking would be of the "old wineskin" group who do not have the "new wine" or Christ's return in 1992, and thus still partake.
Because we listen to the voice of the Lamb, dear one... and not one of "strangers." In that regard, we don't listen to YOU. Because if you WERE Christ... and we christians... then what you share, here and elsewhere, would be READILY discernable by ALL christians. Because we would know your VOICE. Because Christ's sheep KNOW his voice. HE knows US.... and we know HIM. John 10:1-5, 16, 27 We don't know you, though, dear one... because your voice is that of a stranger's.
But it is wonderful still to see them and they definitely are expected.
That doesn't change anything, though - your voice is still that of a stranger...
So this is exciting to see! It fulfills Bible prophecy but trips up the understanding of the 1st-hour workers, the original anointed, who still think that the 144,000 is the full number of those in the kingdom and who are not expecting any more of the anointed. But the anointed are growing!
While it is true that the number of anointed are indeed growing, again, these are not anointed. I will explain who they are in a bit.
Also recall the parable of the prodigal son. The prodigal son becomes the messiah and has a banquet thrown for him by the father, but the older brother, again, murmurs against this choice. But the father comes out and reassures him that he is not rejected, "what is mine is yours." Then he goes back to the banquet where the messianic activity is going on. Thus, again, you have those on the inside and those on the outside of the banquet. Those on the outside, the older brother, are not rejected. So what I believe we are seeingare the increase in the older brother anointed who are still partaking. Those insiders who are part of the banquet and who know the chronology and accept the true messiah in secret, do not partake. So there are far more than the 11,000+ who are now of the heavenly class.
While I agree that the prodigal son represents those "messiahs" (mischaJahs) who return, and the older brother becomes disgruntled, you "beliefs" are curious. How would the Messiah, Christ himself, not KNOW what we are "seeing" here? But both accounts, this and the workers in the vineyard, while not necessarily referencing the same people within it, are representative of the same GROUP of people.
And so, here is what these represent:
I have explained the workers, above. As for the prodigal son and older brothers, the account is more about the older brother than the son. Here, the older brother stayed with the father, never leaving his side, doing "just so." His younger brother, however, too HIS inheritance and went off and blew it out in the world. When he returned home and the father rejoiced the older brother grew somewhat jealous... because he felt he deserved more; after all, he didn't blow his inheritance. But the father's lesson to him was that it didn't matter - what was previously lost had been FOUND... and the entire HOUSE should rejoice when something lost is found! In that light, those who consider themselves to have remained "faithful"... while others may have gone off and squandered their inheritance in the world... should not take issue when such one (tries to) return... as, again, it is to the WHOLE house's benefit that he has. Of course, that son came back with a humble attitude, but that's not the main point - the main point is for the OLDER brother to forgive whatever it is he has "against" the younger brother... and REJOICE... because the younger one's return makes the FATHER rejoice. And if that older loves the FATHER, well, then... he MUST accept the return of the younger!
Now, the "anointed" of the WTBTS. These are not "anointed" but they are those who are now hearing the CALL. Such hear that call from all over, but particularly in the WTBTS, because that is the "sheep pen" of OUR day. But the call is meant to lead them OUT (John 10:1-5), not cement them into their seats inside! It is not until they FOLLOW the call... and come OUT... and QUIT touching the unclean thing... they can be taken in as sons and daughters (which is the anointing!). Hence, the call is to "GET OUT OF HER (my people!)." 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18; Revelation 18:4
Why? Because she is going to FALL! So, the call is going out... and while these are HEARING it... they aren't doing what they SHOULD - get OUT. Why? Because they love the "safety" they think they enjoy in that pen. They THINK they are safe from the "wolves" outside. But that's because that's what they've been TOLD... by the "wolves" INSIDE. They don't understand, fully, they are they among wolves in sheep's clothing. And so they think there is more danger outside the "great city" than inside.
Do they see the danger inside? They do. And they think partaking is going to save them from it. But it won't - nothing will save those on the inside when she falls - they, too, will have shared in her sins and so receive part of her plagues. And this is where the parable of the 10 virgins comes in:
These inside the WTBTS who are partaking are part of the FIVE virgins... who fall asleep with the others. When the Bridegroom arrives ALL awake... and start to go out to meet him. BUT... only five have enough OIL in their lamps. Five... do NOT. This "oil"... is the "oil of exultation", holy spirit. Five of the virgins have this "oil" because they have been anointed! They PURCHASED and so were GIVEN their oil before they fell asleep. So when had plenty when they woke up!
The other five, however, didn't buy any oil first... and HAD NONE... when the Bridegroom, who had delayed, finally arrived! So, they asked those who DID so have some, "Give us some of your oil!" to which the latter said, no, because they only had enough for themselves by that time. And so they sent the five without off to buy some. But... the Bridegroom arrived while they were off trying to buy.
For some time I have been trying to share the TRUTH with those here... about what it means TRULY... to be a "christian" - an anointing, with holy spirit, the "oil" of exultation. So many, however, are of the mind that, no, one doesn't need that, one only needs to consider oneself a christian, call oneself such, follow the teachings of Christ, and one will be fine. Not so, dear one, not so. What will occur for these, who have not sought out and purchased from the One who sells that oil... is that when the Bridegroom, Christ, DOES return... they are going to be without that oil. And without it... they will NOT be able to SEE their way out to meet him... to GREET him, as he is arriving.
I cannot impress enough upon those here with ears to hear to hear... and get the SENSE of these truths:
· Partaking does not make one anointed; it puts one in line to BECOME anointed, to RECEIVE holy spirit, but it is NOT an identifying mark of one receiving it. The GIFTS of that spirit are the identifying mark. The APOSTLES themselves partook... before EVER receiving holy spirit. And they (and the disciples that also received it) were given GIFTS afterward... so as to MANIFEST their receipt of the anointing.
· Simply CALLING oneself a "christian" does not MAKE one a christian - it is the choosing, by means of an anointing with holy spirit, that makes one a "christian" - a "chosen/anointed person."
· These in the WTBTS who are now partaking... are doing so because they hear the CALL; however, many are CALLED. FEW... are CHOSEN. That is because many of the many called... don't DO what they call tells them they MUST. And that is SEPARATE themselves and QUIT touching the unclean thing (the "woman" who "defiles" them!). Rather, they stay in the "safety" of the particular sheep pen, even if it's being watched over by wolves... because they are AFRAID. They miss the point, though, of perfect love. PERFECT love... of God, Christ, and others... casts ALL fear... OUTSIDE. If they loved God and Christ perfectly (which means even loving their enemies)... they would have no fear. They would know that NO MATTER what... JAH would "provide" for them and provide what is BEST for them, including their households!
· So, that rather than follow the Lamb wherever HE goes... and "buy" from HIM the "oil" they will need LATER... so as to SEE him by means of their "lamps"... the EYE... which they can, before anyone ELSE does... when he returnsthey find themselves without oil in their lamps, and thus NO eye to SEE him arriving... and then while going off to try and buy oil... become shut out of the marriage feast!
So, again, as I said, this is quite wonderful!
The truth as to things can be wonderful, yes, dear Lar. Your quite possibly unknowing and unintended attempts to shut up the kingdom of the heavens before God's sheep, though, is not. Indeed, it can cost them the kingdom. Do you TRULY want that to occur?
So for any of the "other sheep" who believe they are getting a spiritual calling, ACCEPT IT. There is a strong probability it is real since ALL the workers, including the other sheep, get invited into the kingdom and are paid the "penny." This is something the WTS, made up of the older brother class, or the "old wineskins" class are surprised and embarrassed about.
How, though, does one DEMONSTRATE one's acceptance, dear one? It is not by accepting the blood, which "ratifies" the covenant between them and God, and so puts them in line to BE chosen... because of their acceptance of... and agreement to be bound to... the terms of His "offer"? Or do they just call out, "Lord, Lord!"? You should know better, Lar, given that you're the Christ. Even if you finally realize you're not... you should still know better.
Please... PLEASE... to any of the Household of God, Israel... and/or those who go withwho are reading this... if you DO have ears to hear and get the SENSE of these truths... GET OUT OF HER! Run! Flee! Because she IS going to fall... and take with her everyone still "inside" her "gates"! If you DO have such ears, may you also HEAR... so as to DO what the Spirit and his Briday SAY... while there is still TIME... and:
"COME! Take "life's water"... the HOLY SPIRIT of God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... His OIL... "of exultation"... which water/spirit/oil... is poured out from the innermost parts of His [olive] TREE... the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, His Son, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"
I bid you all peace!
Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ, the TREE... of Life,
SA
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frankiespeakin
May be this increase in partakers might be responcible for the Faith & Discrete Slave understanding change recently anounced. The Governing Body feel threaten with this increase and so gave more authority to themselves declaring only the annointed on the Governing Body are the F&DS trying to avoid any scriptural claims of newly cliamants to teach in opposition to the Governing Body.
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prologos
A guest: please accept a simple reasoning into your deeply thought-out understanding: you said: "---partaking puts one in line --to be anointed--". Looking at
the last supper appears to yield this idea: Jesus passed the bread and wine to the disciples with an EARTHLY hope. The CUP OF THE NEW COVENANT, gives only FORGIVENESS of sins. Jer.31. The partaking gives the drinkers, eaters right to everlasting life.
They have to SACRIFICE that right, as Jesus did, to gain IMMORTALITY. thats why
Jesus proposed the KINGDOM COVENANT with them some time before and AFTER the last supper.
All christians should partake. so:
Why so few JW partakers? -- because they are told (wrongly) partaking is about heaven.(it is not) its really about forgiveness of sin.
If the "after hours" partakers would be counted it, would be more accurate.
the whole thing is a charade a carricature of what it was meant to be.
even then IF it (Bible fables) have relevance at all.
peace.
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justmom
Quote from Frankie
May be this increase in partakers might be responcible for the Faith & Discrete Slave understanding change recently anounced. The Governing Body feel threaten with this increase and so gave more authority to themselves declaring only the annointed on the Governing Body are the F&DS trying to avoid any scriptural claims of newly cliamants to teach in opposition to the Governing Body.
Yes Frankie
I agree completely! This has a huge bearing on this decision as they have to tighten once again this control that they have seen themselves losing. Too much dissention and they aren't going to admit they've been wrong about anything nor that they have unjustly disfellowshipped certain ones as apostates that never really were to begin with!
Thanks for that
Justmom
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AGuest
A guest: please accept a simple reasoning into your deeply thought-out understanding: you said: "---partaking puts one in line --to be anointed--".
Yes, dear prologos (peace to you, dear one!).
Looking at the last supper appears to yield this idea: Jesus passed the bread and wine to the disciples with an EARTHLY hope. The CUP OF THE NEW COVENANT, gives only FORGIVENESS of sins. Jer.31. The partaking gives the drinkers, eaters right to everlasting life.
Not quite, dear one. Judas partook (Matthew 26:20, 21, 23-29; Mark 14:17, 18-25; Luke 22:14-21; John 13:18, 21, 26, 27). Did he receive a right to everlasting life? (Acts 1:23-26). And was it then that the disciples received holy spirit (John 20:18-22; Acts 2:1-4, 13-18, 33)
They have to SACRIFICE that right, as Jesus did, to gain IMMORTALITY. thats why Jesus proposed the KINGDOM COVENANT with them some time before and AFTER the last supper.
No, dear one, that is NOT what was offered; that is merely what the WTBTS, who has NO idea, teaches what was offered. They don't have to sacrifice an earthly life at all! What is being offered... is BOTH: the ability to access BOTH! As Adham could... and did... before he was locked out of one (the spiritual) and confined to the other (physical)! That is what my Lord meant when he said:
"They will go in... AND OUT... and find pasturage." John 10:9
There is only ONE hope, dear one (Ephesians 4:4)... and the ultimate of that hope is BOTH the heavens AND the earth. True, the initial part is with regard to the spirit realm (where those who are to be joined to Christ go... the spirit realm... for their "marriage" to him), but the end is with regard to both the spirit AND physical realms: such ones will rule UPON the earth... while having access to the "heavens", the spirit realm. Like the angels that have NOT forsook their proper dwelling place, they will go in AND out (which is why there are gates and angels posted - to keep OUT those who should not go IN - like with the garden).
Why both? Because the earth (physical realm) it was that was PREPARED for them. Christ rules over ALL, the spirit AND the physical realm. These, though rule with him... for one thousand years... UPON the physical. Hence, New Jerusalem is seen "come down OUT of heaven (the spirit realm)... and seen UPON the earth (which allows for Gog and Magog TO come "against" her). John 10:9; Genesis 28:12; Revelation 20:9; 21:2, 24).
That is what is meant when is mentions that God has purposed... to bring together AGAIN... the things in the heavens (spirit realm) AND the things on the earth (physical realm)! That it how it WAS... when Adham had access to the garden in Eden. That is how it will be... again.
All christians should partake.
All christians DO partake, dear one. All who wish to BECOME christians should, as well.
Why so few JW partakers? -- because they are told (wrongly) partaking is about heaven.(it is not) its really about forgiveness of sin.
It is... as well as it is a demonstration of one's "ratification" of accepting Christ. It manifests their faith in the BLOOD of Christ... and it's redeeming properties, which are the MEANS for forgivness of sins. Which is exactly what the WTBTS has spent decades undermining! I marvel at how many come out... and will sleep around, do drugs, get divorced, celebrate Christmas/Hallowe'en (and not that I'm saying anything against any of that but only presenting as an example for my point)... but will NOT partake!! NOTHING is more... frightening... to them than that! Indeed, in this one thing alone, the WTBTS has done it's job and done it WELL!
If the "after hours" partakers would be counted it, would be more accurate.
The thing is, dear one... IT DOESN'T MATTER. Wasn't Israel told to NOT take a census, to NOT take a count? Isn't that what became David's ultimate downfall, even more than his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of Uzziah?? I used to marvel that the WTBTS would brag about how small it was (in comparison to the institutions of "christendom"... yet COUNT - every publisher, every piece of literature placed, every hour... and use that as an indication of "Jehovah" being "with" them. Out of one side of their mouth they would point out how small they were, while bragging about their "growth" out of the other side!
The TRUE Bride of Christ... doesn't count anything. Why? Because SHE knows that it's NOT by numbers... or "military might"... but by JAH'S will!
the whole thing is a charade a carricature of what it was meant to be.
Okay, THAT I can agree with!
even then IF it (Bible fables) have relevance at all.
Some do but even so, not much. What does have relevance is one thing: Christ. The Truth (John 14:6). Nothing... and no one... else matters. Truly. Unfortunately, most of man puts importance... matter... on everything BUT that One. Including their own comfort, much of which is based on their concern about what others (not God/Christ) think of them.
peace.
Indeed. To you and your dear household, as well!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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prologos
Aguest, thank you, I tried to keep it simple to those steeped in WT BtS sauce only.
You wrote: "Judas partook" if he did, he abscondet by his traiterous action and lost it. (once saved always saved is wrong) My simple point was that the apostles were served and partook, although they had an earthly hope. Jesus said nothing to correct that. Acts 1 had them asking about an impending Davidic kingdom in Jerusalem. he sidestepped the answer to that question.
When I said "all christians" I meant all present on Nisan 14.
I did not want to define "christians" or adress the practise in some sect to only serve the bread.
The hand-wringing about the count is a diversion from the real issue raised by
John 6 : how do you have "--everlasting life to be resurrected in the last day" if you do not partake of the bread and the wine?
Thanks for the family greeting : You would be stunned if you knew the statistics. peace.
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AGuest
Aguest, thank you, I tried to keep it simple to those steeped in WT BtS sauce only.
You're welcome and thank YOU for the clarification, dear Prologos (again, peace to you!).
You wrote: "Judas partook"
Yes.
if he did, he abscondet by his traiterous action and lost it. (once saved always saved is wrong)
Yes, he did. But he had to... in order for the covenant to be ratified with all 12 tribes... and not just 11 (otherwise, one tribe went unrepresented, which was not the case). His morsel was "polluted", however (dipped in the sop versus a clean piece)... as a symbol of HIS uncleanness (John 13:10, 11)
My simple point was that the apostles were served and partook, although they had an earthly hope. Jesus said nothing to correct that.
You are right that initially their hope was solely earthly... and physical; however, my Lord held out an additional promise to these... for a kingdom (Luke 22:29, 30). Since his kingdom was no part of THIS world... as he had told them... they knew that they were now being offered something different. That the entire discussion... word for word and every word... isn't recorded, is no reason for us to assume he didn't explain what that meant. Somehow they HAD to know that it would require them to go to heaven, even if only for the marriage ("recline with Abraham... in the kingdom").
The hope, then, is to rule with him... from within his kingdom... which will be UPON the earth; however, doing so as beings similar to him/angels: those who have bodies that permit them to go in and out between the spirit and physical realm (John 10:9). These, then, were the first to be offered the hope of BOTH, spirit AND physical. Which is what Adham was (for a time he could go in AND out, between the garden AND the world outside of it - he was not prevented until he was blocked OUT of the garden. Until then, he had access to both. And that is the promise... the "one hope"... that is held out to those in union with Christ - Ephesians 4:4)
Simple points are good, dear one, very... but sometimes they leave out some vital details.
Acts 1 had them asking about an impending Davidic kingdom in Jerusalem. he sidestepped the answer to that question.
He didn't sidestep the question as to the kingdom being "Davidic", dear one; it is and will be (Isaiah 9:7; Acts 2:29-36). He sidestepped the answer to WHEN.
When I said "all christians" I meant all present on Nisan 14.
Okay, no worries.
I did not want to define "christians" or adress the practise in some sect to only serve the bread.
Again, no worries (though I'm not sure what you're referring to).
The hand-wringing about the count is a diversion from the real issue raised by John 6 : how do you have "--everlasting life to be resurrected in the last day" if you do not partake of the bread and the wine?
Oh, I totally agree! Which is why I stated that the count DOESN'T MATTER.
Thanks for the family greeting :
You are quite welcome... and I send it again!
You would be stunned if you knew the statistics.
I'm not sure what you mean: if as to your family/household... maybe. If you mean the WTBTS statistics I'm not so sure - NOTHING about them stuns me. Nothing. One way or the other. She's a harlot, her leaders are imposters... and so nothing should surprise anyone... with ears... or eyes.
peace.
Again, to you and your household, as well!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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Listener
Marking, particularly Aguest's posts.