Elder father sent me an email about Feb 2012 WT - my resposne

by TheStumbler 97 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  blondie

  ARMAGEDDON NEAR—GOD’S KINGDOM TO FOLLOW
  
  The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures. (# Re 16:16-20.) It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. All iniquity of every kind will go down.

  Sermon Book (SM677)

  Now we who are living in this Day see the beginning of these foretold events. We see the prelude to the great Battle of Armageddon. Our thought is that the Armageddon itself will be the mighty "Earthquake" spoken of in Revelation. (` Revelation 16:16-18 `.) In this great revolution and in the succeeding anarchy all earthly institutions will be swept away.

  8/1/1915 WT p 228

  (Charles Taze Russell www.ctrussell.us )
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  Cadellin

  I think your email to your father is a brilliant piece of logic, using the WT's own words--and not taken out of context either! (I hate when the WT claims that apostates twist words and take them out of context when the WT is the biggest culprit in the known universe for doing that.)

  This business of God reading hearts and not merely saving JWs is how reasonable JWs try to get around the undeniable official teaching of the WT that only those marked on the forehead as per Ezekiel will be saved. The mark is baptism as a JW and not just that, but living up to your baptism. Many years ago, when I was still pioneering and uber-zealous, our CO said something from the platform that made me shudder. He had us read the prophecy in Ezekiel about the man with the secretary's inkhorn who went around marking those who where sighing and crying over the detestable things being done. What happened after that? The angels with "smashing instruments," ie big hammers, went around smashing in skulls of anyone w/o the mark. You see, the mark is on the forehead so it's really easy to see and the angels won't be mistaken.

  Then he said that if we ever felt we were losing our sense of urgency, we should go stand outside an elementary school playground for a while and just watch all the happy little children playing. THen we were to imagine the angels coming down with big hammers and smashing all their little heads in.

  I'm not kidding. That was part of his talk from the platform (probably mid 1990's). I remember feeling slightly ill at the time, thinking (but suppressing) that something had to be wrong...
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  arko_n9ne

  watchtower or no. i have been telling the overly passionate bible pushers that ultimately it comes down to death. everyone who has ever told us we need jesus has at some point told us we will be destroyed by god if we reject the scriptures.

  the watchtower literally says we will be destroyed. not killed. not sent to hell. destroyed.

  where is the incentive

  we join and our friends and family dont. they are destroyed. what is the use of paradise without your loved ones. what good is heaven.

  god is already a liar. he said we would be surrounded by our loved ones. what if casey anthony or o.j. simpson were your loved ones.

  would god allow unrepentant murderers in heaven because you loved them

  no. he already said murderers dont inherit the kingdom. but if they are your loved ones you were promised they would be with you. contradicting statements are indicative of a liar.
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  TheStumbler

  well, I got a reply.

  It seems logic and reason is to JWs what water is to a ducks back. He didn't seem to understand some of the points I was making - his answers often missed the point entirey and didnt address the question.

  I don't feel right posting someone's email on the internet without their consent I will summarise the response instead
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  Mad Sweeney

  So typical. They are taught how NOT to reason and they label it "reasoning from the scriptures" so they THINK they CAN reason. In short, itsacult.

  Have you read Steve Hassan's books, TheStumbler?
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  TheStumbler

  He said to understand I would need to have a face to face bible study - to get the full picture. He said that he, and millions, of others know that the Watcthower does not speak outside both sides of its mouth but he did not in any way attempt to refute my argument that the Febraury 12 Watchtower used words such as 'great crowd' are misleading to the public because they have quite a different meaning to JWs and that is not revealed in the article. He conceded that members of false religion cannot be part of the great crowd or annointed Christians but did not comment on the quotes that only the 'great crowd' and 'annointed christians' meaning only JWs will be saved. insead God He said only those who are 'good' as judged by God's standards found in scripture will be saved. He also made this comment that I had to share: It is only those with the right heart condition that will survive Armageddon, those wicked will not. Can a paraplegic be regarded as wicked? Can a person with the right heart condition be taught when the disabilities have been removed? Yes I don't really know what it means. regarding God killing billions - he said he cant comment on numbers but that God does not want to kill anyone and that is why the preaching work is done - he emphasises the scale of the preaching work (world wide and around the clock it is!). He also point out about how much suffering there is in the world and how perfect the new syste will be - he did not mention that 99.99% of those suffering today will be killed and not see the new system. he offered this analogy: I am sure you appreciate that in the case of a physical operation on the human body, an operation may be painful and necessary in order to save life which after all is precious. There is a parallel with all human life on this planet. Mankind is in a sick state, and at best we can only deal with the symptoms but not the cause, so crime, injustice, poverty, war and death continues. It is only Jehovah God that will deal with the root cause of all our problems, not just the symptoms and remove all human suffering, wickedness and death forever as well as bring back to life the righteous and the unrighteous onto a beautiful paradise earth Of course, in his analogy, if Jehovah is the surgeoun then to cure his sick patient he will remove 99.99% of the body leaving perhaps just a few brain sells - evidently not the ones responsible for critical thinking. regarding my comment about Children not being responsible for their parents and that is unfair to punish children for their parents action his reply was simply 'parents are responsible for their children' and 'interstingly, in many countries today the authorities see children as the responsibility of the parents
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  TheStumbler

  He said to understand I would need to have a face to face bible study - to get the full picture. He said that he, and millions, of others know that the Watcthower does not speak outside both sides of its mouth but he did not in any way attempt to refute my argument that the Febraury 12 Watchtower used words such as 'great crowd' are misleading to the public because they have quite a different meaning to JWs and that is not revealed in the article. He conceded that members of false religion cannot be part of the great crowd or annointed Christians but did not comment on the quotes that only the 'great crowd' and 'annointed christians' meaning only JWs will be saved. insead God He said only those who are 'good' as judged by God's standards found in scripture will be saved. He also made this comment that I had to share: It is only those with the right heart condition that will survive Armageddon, those wicked will not. Can a paraplegic be regarded as wicked? Can a person with the right heart condition be taught when the disabilities have been removed? Yes I don't really know what it means. regarding God killing billions - he said he cant comment on numbers but that God does not want to kill anyone and that is why the preaching work is done - he emphasises the scale of the preaching work (world wide and around the clock it is!). He also point out about how much suffering there is in the world and how perfect the new syste will be - he did not mention that 99.99% of those suffering today will be killed and not see the new system. he offered this analogy: I am sure you appreciate that in the case of a physical operation on the human body, an operation may be painful and necessary in order to save life which after all is precious. There is a parallel with all human life on this planet. Mankind is in a sick state, and at best we can only deal with the symptoms but not the cause, so crime, injustice, poverty, war and death continues. It is only Jehovah God that will deal with the root cause of all our problems, not just the symptoms and remove all human suffering, wickedness and death forever as well as bring back to life the righteous and the unrighteous onto a beautiful paradise earth Of course, in his analogy, if Jehovah is the surgeoun then to cure his sick patient he will remove 99.99% of the body leaving perhaps just a few brain sells - evidently not the ones responsible for critical thinking. regarding my comment about Children not being responsible for their parents and that is unfair to punish children for their parents action his reply was simply 'parents are responsible for their children' and 'interstingly, in many countries today the authorities see children as the responsibility of the parents
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  Mad Sweeney

  They are taught that "illustrations" make your point clearer. They aren't taught that it doesn't work if your point is WRONG.
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  TheStumbler

  sorry, lots of typos in that last post - I was in a rush

  Madsweeney, I haven't read Steve Hassan's book but I have read about it.

  I know he doesnt think it is productive to try and win the discussion by reason and logic - instead push them into making their own conclusions by asking non confrontational questions.

  I have tried this approach but I get frustrated by the logical falacies I get given as answers.
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  Pistoff

  He said that he, and millions, of others know that the Watcthower does not speak outside both sides of its mouth

  There you have bumped into the WT Theocratic Failsafe mechanism:

  Rule 1: The WT is not wrong, can't be wrong, they are God's voice they are the faithful and discreet slave and are 'spirit guided'.

  Rule 2: When you see that they are wrong, remember rule 1; it isn't possible that they are wrong. It is just old truth, it is that you don't understand it, it will be made clearer later, wait on Jehovah, don't twist the words, don't let it stumble you, it isn't important, who told you that, have you been reading apostate literature, are you having doubts, on and on.

  Your father is probably a good man. My wife still attends, she is a good person.

  The good people that still attend are the problem; they won't and don't question the completely crazy things the WT says. THEY allow the WT to be well thought of by enough people that the WT continues.

  If the good people quit going, it would collapse back into the crazies and control freaks at the core.