RE: Scripture Conflict Analysis.

by s-c-3-1-3 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  s-c-3-1-3

  First of all, I am neither trying to play the devil’s advocate, nor am I a troll. I am searching for the truth, and am exploring the faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A lot of the questions I have had, the Watchtower Society has been able to provide a logical explanation, but I still have questions.

  Jeremiah 17:10 says, “I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings” (New World Translation). In Revelations 2:23, however, declares, “And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds” (NWT). The speaker is identified as the one who “holds the seven stars in his right hand, he who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands” (Revelation 2:1 NWT). Earlier in Revelation 1:12-17 this man is revealed to be the “son of man” (NWT). These passages are conflicting, but I am curious to know the Watchtower Society’s position on the subject.

  Thanks in advance!
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  cofty

  I assume you are making a point about the identity of Jesus by comparing these two texts?

  The borg would answer it very simply. In the OT text in Jeremiah it is Jehovah who judges Israel, in Revelation Jesus indicates that he has been given authority to judge the congregations. They may quote Matt 28 where Jesus says all authority has been given him.

  These sort of proof texting arguments are impossible to win with JWs.
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  Chalam

  cofty These sort of proof texting arguments are impossible to win with JWs.

  Agreed again!

  1 Corinthians 2:14

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

  s-c-3-1-3, 1 Tim 4 describes the situation loud and clear.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
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  designs

  sc3,

  The problem is your are trying to get the New Testament to somehow agree or sync with the Scriptures of the Jews, can't be done. Christianity Hijacked the Jews beliefs and morphed them into something that simply can't be reconciled.
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  Jeffro

  Aside from the fact that Revelation isn't real, it is plausible that two different fictional entities might both search kidneys, which is what the JWs would probably say. Also, 'searching into' bodily organs is a form of pagan divination (compare Ezekiel 21:21).

  While we're in Jeremiah though, the order of events given in Jeremiah 25:12 does conflict with their interpretation of the 70 years. The import of this conflict makes their whole presumed authority structure fall like a house of cards.
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  transhuman68

  Our Creator knows the makeup of man in the

  most thorough and intimate way. Therefore, Jehovah

  is said to test out "heart and kidneys, " even as

  his Son also searches "the kidneys and hearts. " ( Ps

  7 : 9 ; Re 2 : 23 ) Just as one refines silver, Jehovah

  can "refine" the kidneys and heart of a person so

  he may become right before God, being made

  more sensitive to Jehovah's ways.-Ps 26 : 2 ;

  66: 10.

  Insight On The Scriptures (1988)
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  s-c-3-1-3

  Thanks for the responses. Not surprisingly, the Watchtower Society has an explanation for it. Interesting how it will use Matthew 28 to supports its claim, but distorts Phillipians 2, which explains why Jesus said Jehovah was greater than he.

  Jeffro, I am confused about the Jeremiah 25:12 reference, and how it could be so damaging to its authority reputation. Could you explain?
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  s-c-3-1-3

  I know I should probably create a new thread, but perhaps one of you can provide me with an "Watchtower Society explanation" of John 2:19-21?
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  Band on the Run

  I've been reading about the interplay of judaism and Christianity. Christianity adopted Jewish scriptures b/c it was a new religion and had all the respect New Age religions do today. Judaism was a very ancient religion that Gentiles respected. Grafting Judaism onto Christianity made Christianity more palatable for converts, esp. Gentiles. Jews absolutely reject the prophecy fulfillment line of the NT and Christianity. A classic example is comparing a Jewish interpretation of Psalm 23 which is about contemporary Jewish worship with the Christian analysis in which it foreshadows Christ. The OT and NT have little to do with each other. Judaism is not defined by Christianity any more than Jews define Christianity. For a short time, they co-existed. Acts progresses only a short while before Stephen is martyred at the Temple.

  Jewish perspective can be found in the Encyclopedia Judaica. When I first start reading NT academic lit, I was repeatedly shocked that Jewish thought was NOT what the Wt and Christianity asserted it was. Jumping around the Bible is not fruitful.
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  Jeffro

  S-c-3-1-3

  Jeffro, I am confused about the Jeremiah 25:12 reference, and how it could be so damaging to its authority reputation. Could you explain?

  JWs believe that a Jewish exile of 70 years ran from 607 BCE until 537 BCE, two years after Babylon fell in 539 BCE. Daniel 5:26-31 indicates Babylon's king was called to account (weighed in the balance and found deficient), and JWs agree that happened in 539 BCE.

  Jeremiah 25:12 states that Babylon's king would be called to account after the 70 years ended. (Jeremiah 25:8-11 states that the 70 years were a period during which all the surrounding nations served Babylon, and the Bible never mentions 70 years of exile.)

  JWs also believe that a period of 2520 years ran from 607 BCE until October 1914 CE, and from there they calculate that the Bible Students were 'chosen' as 'God's organization' in 1919. Specifically, they believe that 42 months and 1,260 days (both 3½ years) at Revelation 11:2-3 refers to a period from December 1914 to mid 1918 (this used to start at October 1914, but they moved it when they revised the Revelation Climax book - see http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/156732/1/Revelation-Its-Grand-Climax-Adjusted), which they apply to preaching work during World War I, followed by the imprisonment of early Watch Tower Society members in 1918. They believe that after their release from prison in 1919 that they were approved as Jesus’ ‘slave class’.

  If 607 is wrong, 1914 is wrong, and 1919 is wrong.

  If 607 is right, the 70 years end after Babylon's king is called to account, then the Bible is wrong and the 'prophecy' is meaningless anyway.