Jesus “Was” but not “IS” Michael!

by free thought 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • free thought
    free thought

    To honor the Son is to Honor the father.

    I am a practicing JW who I believe is of the heavenly calling. This post is not to criticize WTS but to open honest discussion among mature followers of Christ.

    There has been much controversy around the WTS doctrine regarding the arch angel Michael. As many are aware, WTS believe that Jesus in his pre-human existence was Michael , Gods first born. But there has been some confusion among JW’s rumored that Jesus in his human form is still Michael.! This gives fuel for JW antagonist to claim that WTS Christ is not the same Jesus as was crucified and resurrected.

    Could it be new light as to clarification that Christ was not in any shape or form Michael incarnate. Lets study this together. For those having an insight book, please refer to Jesus Christ sub heading His Baptism!( page 59) note:

    “Gods spirit poured out upon Jesus doubles illuminated his mind on many points .....how Jesus recalled his pre-human existence and the things he had heard from his father do as well from the glory that he himself has enjoyed in the heavens It MAY WELL BE that the memory of these things was restored to him at the time of his baptism ands anointing Jesus anointing with Holy Spirit appointed and commissioned him to carry out his ministry of preaching and teaching.

    Please note: The phrase> May well be! is typical WTS language as to imply, but is not a fact.! Many JW’s need to discern this type of writing. Why so? The above explanation as you now is in the mind-set of JW’s as factual .

    But is it?

    Lets take a look at a recent WT April 2010 Titled> “The Man who changed the World” sub heading “What Jesus Taught about Himself”

    The Son of God > Jehovah has many angelic sons. Jesus however is unique. He referred to himself as “ the only-begotten Son of God.”( John 3:18) That expression means that Jesus is the sole direct creation of God .The only begotten is the one through whom God created all things Colossians 1:16.

    The Son of man” Jesus used this expression more than any other to refer to himself ( Mathew 8:20) He thus showed that he was neither a materialized angel nor an incarnation Rather, he was fully human .By his holy spirit, God transferred his Son’s life from heaven to earth, causing conception in the womb of the virgin Mary. As a result Jesus was born as a perfect sinless human .

    The insight book states>

    “Gods spirit poured out upon Jesus doubles illuminated his mind on many points .....how Jesus recalled his pre-human existence.

    Please note; At this stage it could be plausible to recall past experiences, as did inspired writers ; but to say that Christ recollection was a restoration, is implying that Jesus was Michael in his human existence.

    The Franklin dictionary states incarnation as > The union of divine and human nature

    Chrisidom believe that Christ embodiment is an incarnation of God. We JW’s need to be aware that we may be guilty of that same precedent How? Elders have always implied that Jesus IS Michael instead of Jesus WAS Michael. There is a vast difference if one is to honor Gods Son and to acknowledge his new title as our raining King!

    JW’s say that Michael is just another name for Jesus. This may be so, but there is only one TITLE- TheLord Jesus Christ .To refer to Christ in anyway as Michael is demeaning that TITLE, like calling a doctor by his first name. Like in all professions titles have to be earned and then respected .

    I think there is confusion as in Johns writing in reference to the battle between Michael and the dragon. John was interpreting picture image hence, the angel which come to his understanding was Michael, he did not fully appreciate that it was Christ Jesus in his new authoritive title. That is of course if one is to take Rutherford’s teachings as factual.?

    It is obvious by the WT article that the brothers have picked up on a very important precedent Christ former title was Michael. His pre-existence was from his spiritual ancestral heritage. His life force was his very own including his mind - personal thoughts His pre-existence was recalled by his parents teachings and from his study of the torah, notany heavenly experience as it was implied in the insight book. . If Christ was to have incarnated any of Michaels memory he would have been given advantage to overcome his temptations thus would not set a human perspective as to his modeling for our benefit.

    Yes the heavens did open up and God did speak of his approval as to his Sons witness in baptism. The Holy Spirit symbolizes anointing. Not a history lesson.

    This is a typical example of new light , which will take many years before it is set in the mind -set of JW’s.

    Blessings Free thought.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    The WT uses weasal words. Through implication, they have members believe what they cannot expressly state. I fell for this for many years. The Awake was special. The use of secular sources out of context. After colllege, it was abundantly clear to me but only after college. I am not certain whether you are saying that presently Jesus is Michael. I've taken several college courses and fewer graduate seminary courses. I don't recall any slight hint that Jesus was Michael under any circumstances. Apples and oranges. God made human, not angel made pseudohuman.

  • Ding
    Ding

    I don't believe the WT's teachings about Jesus or Michael, but here is what they say in Reasoning from the Scriptures, p. 218: "At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as `the archangel's call,' and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus' commanding call to someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ."

    So the WTS says Jesus "IS" Michael, not "was" Michael.

    That said, the WTS doesn't believe Jesus the man was Michael the archangel in human flesh or that the archangel Michael is the man Jesus. They teach that all they shared was an impersonal life force (whatever that is), that Michael the archangel went out of existence at the incarnation of Jesus, that "the man Jesus is dead, forever dead," and that Jesus' resurrection was really Jehovah putting his impersonal life force back into the spirit body of the archangel Michael. By their own reasoning, despite what they say, they don't believe that that Jesus was or is Michael. They believe that Jesus and Michael were two separate creatures that shared an impersonal life force and never co-existed.

    In other words, the WTS' teachings about Michael and Jesus are contradictory. That's why there is such confusion.

    BTW, how can you profess to be one of the anointed and yet disagree with what the "faithful and discreet slave organization" published in the Insight book unless the GB specifically repudiates what was published there?

  • Morbidzbaby
    Morbidzbaby

    This is one belief I never could subscribe to. Firstly, why would his name be Michael in heaven, but Jesus on earth? Why change his name? When Gabriel spoke to Mary, it was KNOWN that he was Gabriel. So why not state that the baby's name should be Michael? Surely he would remember at his baptism who he was once he received that good ol' Holy Spirit. What was the deal? Was he in "Witness" Protection or something?

    Secondly, if JESUS is ruling in heaven since 1914, then where does Revelation get off calling him Michael if he is NO LONGER Michael? Makes no sense.

  • justmom
    justmom

    Hello Free thought and appreciate your post but a reply to this is ....

    Jesus is not and never was michael the archangel. An archangel is exactly what it says he is an (arch) (angel) which are cherubs in species persay as it was michael and the now adversary that were the cherubs that were covering the ark of the covenant.

    Hebrews chapter One points this out. God who long ago spoke on many occasions by means of prophets now speaks to us by means of a son, who has become better than the angels......a name more excellent than theirs. Verse 5 "For example, to which one of the angels did he EVER say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father"? ............verse 13 But with reference to which one of the angels has he EVER said; "Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet"? 14 Are they not all spirits (not sons) for public service (messengers) sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?

    You mention a few times in your post "new light". There is no new light the way the organization teaches. Truth never changes so no need for the light to be new or changing. The verse the wtbs uses to prove this if you reread it slowly is this way Proverbs 4;18, " The PATH of the righteous ones is like the bright light (bright not new) that is getting lighter and lighter (not new) until the day is firmly established." So it is the path of the righteous that becomes brighter.

    You also mention you are an active JW professing to be annointed did I understand that correctly? If so, holy spirit reminds you the same as it did me REV18:4, "To get out of her if you do not want to share in her sins and receive her plagues." By professing to be joined to the Christ and remaining in what Jah has called "unclean" quit touching it in order to be taken in as a son, you are in actuality being a "harlot" (Babylon the great) trying to have two husbandly owners belonging to both and it never will work. Israel already tried that before and still does (Not true Israel). You cannot be a spiritual virgin joined to the Christ and be joined to a corporation runned religion. You must choose!

    Just want to share truth with my people

    justmom.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    If Jesus was an angel prior to coming to earth, what became of him? Did he cease to exist? How is angelic life different from heavenly life that you say was transferred into Mary's womb? Son of man doesn't mean that Jesus existed as a man in heaven., does it? So, there had to be continuity between the Jesus who came down from heaven and the Jesus who walked upon the earth , don't you think? Otherwise, you have two Jesuses. The only thing that makes sense is that Jesus added to himself what he did not have before, namely humanity.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    What the heck is an impersonal life force? I don't recall Paul discussing it. If Micheal is no longer Michael, why mention Michael at all. Jesus can be Jesus and Michael can be Michael. They are not both at any point in time. Seems a waste of a good angel. Jesus is not Christ is not Michael. Why do they posit an impersonal life force? It implies that God lacks the power to create new life. Yet Jesus says God can raise the rocks to replace Abraham's descendents.

    Being trained as a lawyer, I realize the WT uses many tricks. Only a very careful reader can grasp all the nuance, assertions of possibility, much speculation. If the Witnesses attracted highly educated people, the wording might make sense. It makes no sense to write this way for congregations of high school grads or voc school grads. So many things I thought were certain when I was younger are very different than I assumed.

    They move beyond the Bible Zone into the WT imaginaton Zone all the time. Going beyond what is written. No one can know what they write about. It does not bother the writers. It is clear why they oppose college.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    I love fan fiction.

    I am a practicing JW who I believe is of the heavenly calling. This post is not to criticize WTS but to open honest discussion among mature followers of Christ.

    What a pity that the GB "does not maintain a global network of anointed ones" (The Watchtower, August 15, 2011, page 22).

  • designs
    designs

    Don't forget God has a MFW Magic Fairy Wand anything is possible...

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Jesus was never Michael.

    It's quite likely that Jesus was never even Jesus.

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