So you think the Roman Catholic Church is different from the WTS re hiding abuse

by blondie 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • blondie
    blondie

    http://www.snapnetwork.org/deposition_of_a_snap_leader_to_be_made_public

    Deposition of a SNAP leader to be made public

    Posted by Mark Serrano on January 18, 2012 · Flag

    Late yesterday, a judge “unsealed” the six hour deposition of SNAP Executive Director David Clohessy by five lawyers representing Kansas City Bishop Robert Finn and five Kansas City accused pedophile priests (Fr. Michael Tierney, Msgr. Thomas O’Brien, Fr. Mark Honhart, Fr. Francis McGlynn and Fr. Thomas Cronin). We will post it on our website as soon as we get a copy of the transcript. It ostensibly stems from a case called John Doe BP v. Fr. Michael Tierney and the Kansas City diocese and from one of three subpoenas that have been issued in recent weeks to victims who are SNAP leaders. This is the first time in SNAP’s 23 years that its staff has been subpoenaed.

    Catholic officials are demanding thousands of pages of private records from child sex abuse victims and others. This has been called a “fishing expedition.” But it’s much worse than that. It’s a cynical, shrewd legal maneuver to deter victims, witnesses, whistleblowers, police, prosecutors, journalists and others from exposing predators, protecting kids and seeking help from SNAP.

    And it threatens the long-standing privacy protections that almost all crime victims – not just child sex victims of predatory clerics’ victims - have enjoyed for years.

    The demands – including documents from as long ago as 23 years- come from church officials in two dioceses - Kansas City and St. Louis. SNAP is not part of either suit.

    Catholic officials want private, personal records and e mails involving hundreds of individuals who have never even heard of or met the accused or the accusers in the two suits. This is a misuse of judicial processes designed to crush a support and advocacy group that protects the vulnerable and heals the wounded. It’s cleverly orchestrated to keep clergy sex crimes and cover ups concealed.

    Six thousand US priests have been publicly accused of sexually assaulting kids. Many more have been privately accused. Church officials desperately want to keep those “private” allegations “private.”

    The subpoenas – in St. Louis and in Kansas City – are virtually identical. They ask for every single document in SNAP’s records and e mails that mentions

    • every single current or former priest in each city, and
    • repressed memory (even if it involves a dead victim in Miami and a dead predator in Alaska).

    (In St. Louis, however, church officials now claim they are backing away somewhat from two of the most sweeping demands.)

    Who knows how many other subpoenas are in the works? (There are almost 200 Catholic dioceses in the US, roughly even more Catholic religious orders, and 6,000 proven, admitted, credibly and/or publicly accused predator priests, not to mention nuns, bishops, brothers, seminarians and lay employees.)

    Step back and consider the larger context. Last year must have been extraordinarily tough for the US Catholic hierarchy. For the first time ever, two high ranking church officials face criminal charges for concealing child sex crimes – Bishop Finn in Kansas City and Monsignor William Lynn in Philadelphia. The hierarchy also knows that victims finding other victims and joining together for support, healing and justice will, in turn, lead to more victims coming forward and exposing even more (and more recent) clerical sex offenders and cover ups.

    So, they have got to find a tactic—even if it ultimately loses in court—for scaring and stopping victims from coming forward to SNAP and other agencies where they find the strength and courage to call law enforcement.

    What better way to frighten victims and derail advocates than by launching an unprecedented legal assault on the oldest, largest and most visible support group for those victims – and its allies - while at the same time also chilling and scaring witnesses, whistleblowers, journalists and others into thinking twice before contacting SNAP or worse, choosing to stay silent?

    Keep in mind these facts revealed by the deposition:

    • Church lawyers asked Clohessy more than 700 questions. Less than 3% of them concerned Fr. Tierney or the case against him (which is the purported reason for the deposition and discovery demands).
    • The overwhelming majority of the questions (close to 90%) dealt with internal SNAP matters (with virtually no relevance to whether Fr. Tierney molested a child or KC church officials concealed Tierney’s alleged crimes).
    • Only one attorney, at the very end of the deposition, asked the key question “Has there been any contact whatsoever between SNAP and John Doe BP? (Tierney’s alleged victim)” (Clohessy answered ‘no.’) That attorney, Jeff Jensen (a former FBI agent and sex crimes prosecutor), represents SNAP. In other words, none of the lawyers representing Bishop Finn, Fr. Tierney, Fr. Honhart, Fr. Cronin, Msgr. O’Brien, or Fr. McGlynn even bothered to ask about Clohessy’s alleged connection to the case at hand.

    Catholic officials insist they aren’t trying to get private information about victims SNAP helps. Yet their lawyers introduced into evidence the names and home addresses of at least a dozen SNAP members, almost all of them victims. (We are grateful that Judge Ann Mesle ordered that these be redacted in the unsealed transcript.) Church lawyers asked dozens and dozens of questions in the deposition designed to show that Missouri’s rape shield law –under which SNAP refuses to give out information about victims – does NOT in fact protect clergy sex abuse victims.

    If church officials don’t want names and private communications with victims, why pay lawyers to undermine Missouri’s rape shield law and its applicability here? This is like a known criminal saying “I don’t want your money. Just gimme your credit card, ATM card, PIN number and checkbook.”

    (Catholic officials have tried, and sometimes succeeded, in “outing” victims before. Just last year, New Hampshire’s bishop persuaded a court to “out” an alleged child sex abuse victim of Fr. George St. Jean. Five years ago, church supporters of an Orange diocesan cleric, Monsignor John Urell, put six previously private victims’ names on a website.) Seven years ago, Milwaukee church officials tried to reveal names of boys sexually violated by Fr. Siegfried Widera. Los Angeles church officials released the name of a victim of Monsignor Joseph Alzugaray-see her statement below)

    http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2011/03_04/2011_04_05_SNAP_NHBishop.htm

    Remember, the deposition that we’re posting today ostensibly stems from a case called John Doe BP v. Fr. Michael Tierney and the Kansas City diocese. Keep in mind these indisputable facts about the case:

    • SNAP is not a party to the lawsuit.
    • In at least four court filings and a sworn deposition, SNAP has said it’s had no contact whatsoever with John Doe, the victim.
    • In at least four court filings, Doe has said the same thing.
    • So if Doe (as defense lawyers suggest) may be lying about his abuse or his memories (and there’s no reason or evidence to think he is), SNAP couldn’t possibly have played any role in that.

    A few, loud critics of abuse victims accuse us of “hypocrisy” because, in this legal struggle, we’re fighting to protect the privacy of those SNAP helps: victims, witnesses, whistleblowers, police, prosecutors, journalists and Catholics (many of whom are hurting, confused, and frightened). Consider this:

    Transparency about criminals helps protect the vulnerable. Transparency about victims hurts the already-hurting.

    When victims’ privacy is respected, more victims are able to speak up, protect others, expose predators and start healing. When victims’ privacy is violated, more victims stay silent, more predators walk free and more innocent people are raped and assaulted.

    Who benefits when the private e mails of a struggling teenager, who was sexually assaulted for years by his or her priest, are given to Archbishop Carlson and his lawyers? That’s not “transparency.” That’s a travesty. That’s brutality. That’s betrayal. (NOTE-the St. Louis case involves a 19 year old who was repeatedly sexually assaulted by an already-convicted pedophile priest as recently as 2001.)

    Men who beat their spouses, rape adults and assault kids would love to force ‘transparency’ on their helpless victims. They’d love to get records of what their victims told counselors or where they took refuge or what they said in support groups. But does anyone really think that’s how our society should function?

    Archbishop Carlson is desperately trying to protect the reputations of his top staffers who knowingly and deceitfully put an admitted child predator back in a parish where he again sexually violated another child. Is there a more heinous offense than deliberately putting kids in the path of a predator with no warning to their parents? So of course Carlson will do anything possible to shift blame and attention elsewhere, even if it means going after a non-profit self help group and a hurting teenaged girl.

    Our position isn’t hypocrisy - it’s common sense. It’s the long-standing and well-established practice of rape crisis centers and domestic violence shelters and counselors and cops and everyone who cares about safeguarding the vulnerable from the violent.

    We put convicted sex offenders’ names on state websites. We don’t put their victims’ names out there.

    Let's step back and consider the big picture for a second. Archbishop Carlson, Bishop Finn and their brother Catholic bishops have hired, hidden, transferred, defended and enabled child molesters. SNAP hasn't. Carlson, Finn and their colleagues have ignored and concealed the clerics’ crimes. SNAP hasn't. Carlson, Finn and their peers have caused and compounded unimaginable pain to tens of thousands of once innocent and trusting boys and girls. SNAP hasn't. So the idea of treating the church's records about predators the same as SNAP's records about victims is just wrong.

    Finally, to protect kids from predators, we gladly work with lots of sources – journalists, police, prosecutors, lawyers, victims and others – to get accurate information out quickly to the public when credible allegations surface. We’re proud of that. It takes only seconds for a pedophile to shove his tongue down a girl’s throat or his hands down a boy’s pants. It takes only minutes for predators to intimidate victims, threaten witness, discredit whistleblowers, destroy evidence, and fabricate alibis. It takes only hours for child molesters to dodge police and escape overseas and keep assaulting kids.

    So when we learn about dangerous and potentially dangerous child sex offenders, we move quickly to alert as many people as possible.

    Sometimes, we learn of a predator’s impending arrest warrant from police or prosecutors before it happens. Sometimes we learn of a predator’s impending suspension from a church whistleblower. Sometimes, we learn of a victim’s impending lawsuit from the victim or his/her attorney. There’s nothing inappropriate or sinister about this, no matter how hard church officials try to pretend or intimate that there is. It’s one way we make sure accurate information is provided, more parents are warned about credibly accused predators and more kids are protected.

    Many would like the Catholic Church’s on-going, horrific child sex abuse and cover up crisis to disappear. Many resent those of us who shine a light on dangerous individuals and practices. But when those resentments translate into unwarranted, unprecedented and unjust attacks, we should all pause and recall who has enabled and concealed heinous crimes and who is exposing and preventing heinous crimes.

    Here’s the bottom line - Catholic officials are desperately trying to conceal their wrong-doing by attacking victims. They’re desperately trying to silence victims, witnesses, whistleblowers and journalists by trying to eviscerate SNAP.

    Supportive editorials in Missouri’s two largest newspapers

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/columns/the-platform/editorial-bishops-target-victims-advocacy-group-in-st-louis-kansas/article_9afeff1c-13b5-513c-879f-b9b9e5d7d99d.html

    http://www.kansascity.com/2012/01/08/3356826/the-stars-editorial-chilling-turn.html

    http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/snap-leader-testimony-was-fishing-expedition

    Earlier SNAP statements on this controversy

    http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_responds_to_church_seeking_19_year_old_victim_s_records

    http://www.snapnetwork.org/unprecedented_attack_on_victims_by_kc_catholic_officials

    http://www.snapnetwork.org/victims_battle_gag_order

    http://bilgrimage.blogspot.com/2012/01/snap-faces-subpoenas-kansas-city-star.html

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No. Some people (usually those who live close to the Vatican) distinguish between a true church and a very corrupted one.

    The Roman Catholic Church is not as fascinated with Witnesses as the Witnesses are obsessed with the Roman church. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do believe the bad publicity and money paid in damages will change the Roman church. I don't see the Witnesses ever admitting contrition.

  • blondie
    blondie

    BOTR, I can understand why the RC has no concern about a group of 7 million people; but I do feel that the legal fight of SNAP can establish a legal foundation that ex-jws and jws can use against the WTS.

    I have heard people say the RC is better because they have "admitted" and "apologized" but they are empty words said only to CYA. Based on the RC actions they are not "the true church" and their leaders are just a responsible as any person in authority.

    BTW it is not because I was a jw and subject to the WTS anti RC words; but I based it on my work with SNAP and talking to Catholics and ex-Catholics and how they were treated by their religious leaders. I even know several that have been shunned by family and friends because they accused their abuser, the local priest, who still is revered.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    I do believe the bad publicity and money paid in damages will change the Roman church. I don't see the Witnesses ever admitting contrition.

    Both points are true, I believe. However, I do not think much change will come to the Roman Catholic Church until they have a new pope.

    This one is implicit in past coverups.

  • blondie
    blondie

    All I can say is that you may think you understand the WTS and the RC is different; I have sat through what RC vicitms and families have faced and treated and know several religious legal people in the RC who know what the RC's motive. To think that a change of pope would make a difference is to think that a changeover of the GB would make a difference. The pope comes out of a similar rise in power and adhering to a larger religious group. This step by the RC shows that they have not changed and are still trying to protect their organization at the hurt of the victims.

  • cptkirk
    cptkirk

    haha botr...reading your reply...you sound like you've been studying my dominating methods of articulation. almost thought i was reading something that I WROTE there for a second. of course i don't think we are fighting for the same cause, but it's all good. you've got the warrior spirit.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Blondie - note that I did not say that the next new pope would necessarily DO anything about this:

    My point was that Benedict certainly is NOT going to do anything meaningful about it.

    Yes, probably the next one will be more of the same.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I never said the Roman Catholic Church was the true church. B/c it is so much part of the world, and ruled the west for almost 2 thousand years, it is more suscpetible to shaming. I've posted elsewhere that the coverups were worse than the acts. Lawyers must zealously represent your client. Roman Catholic lawyers believed in a scorched earth policy. They went far beyond their legal duties. Rather than saving the church, the coverups are bringiing it far, far down. The RC Church is a player, the Witnesses are not.

    Both claim exclusive power and knowledge. Penn State was wrong but the hurt is greatly elevated when people who believe religious groups are holy and infallible commit grievous sins. The cover up in the RC seems much more extensive than in the Witnesses. NonCatholics are hurt by the hypocrisy. My sister is Catholic (I wish my father knew.). They have no sophistication. Many members of her parish, including my sister, give money directly to charities. No money is going to the diocese.

    I am antiCatholic if anything. My Witness indoctrination is one factor but since college I've read church politcal history. The corruption is mind blogging. Just as the Witnesses, Bible reading is discouraged. You need a priest to think for you. I was exposed to Woodstock Jesuit Seminary. Daniel Berrigan was celebrant frequently at my Anglican church. I was impressed but Catholic friends said this is atypical. They were right. Idiots mostly.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Blondie, I confronted a young JW elder today about child abuse in the JW organization. He says they have been instructed in how to deal with child abuse cases. According to him, the victims (and parents) are free to go to the police and lay a charge. They are also "encouraged" to seek professional help, viewing psychologists and psychiatrists as doctors. This must be very recent instructions. What happened in Victoria, Australia contradicts his testimony. Or is it a case of those elders following their own rules. Anybody here have more info, elders or ex-elders?

  • blondie
    blondie

    Just like the RC, the WTS has their public face; and remember the WTS says its members are not always entitled to the truth. The WTS says one thing and with or without their permission, elders and congregations do what they feel is right. It has been interesting to me that despite the organization or institution, they react similarly, what can we hide, what can we say we do (that we don't), and heavens don't let people learn what we do...no one cares if the god they worship sees what they are doing, in fact they prove their lack belief in the existence of their god by what they do; as the bible says, God has left the land and he is not seeing.

    'The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!'

    And whose deeds are done in a dark place, And they say, "Who sees us?" or "Who knows us?"

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