by OnTheWayOut 21 Replies latest jw friends
Good point, Outlaw. Boundaries don't apply to JW's. We hear/read that all the time.
Mrs. Jones, I might have told them the kids wanted to go to a different Kingdom Hall.
outsmartthesystem, that's gotta be a huge part of it- their violation of boundaries is for saving lives.
I had a conversation with BF a few days ago about this very subject. My parents live far away, and while I promised them I wouldn't keep my children from them, BF has rules (as do I) about what they are allowed to speak to them about. At the first mention of "Jehovah", I will forcefully tell them that religion is off-limits. Our child is not being raised in a religious household, not being taught that there IS a god, but that other people believe in the concept. Our child will be taught to make their own mind up based on solid evidence and critical thinking, not because "Mom and Dad say this is how it is" or because some collection of writings from ancient worshippers of a volcano god say that this is how it is.
I know they will not like this and I know that they would try to use every opportunity to preach when BF and I are not around...which is why all phone calls will be on speakerphone, and all visits will be supervised with the entire family present, not just my child and them. The other reason for this is that my mother doesn't respect boundaries when it comes to discipline, either. My brother would leave my neice with my mother, allowed her to take the kid to meetings, etc. He and his wife stipulated that if she misbehaved, she could be put in time out, put in the corner, or made to sit down until her parents came. He made it known that she was NOT to be spanked. My mother did not respect that boundary and said after he left "When she's in my home and I'm taking care of her, I'll discipline her MY way". The kid got spanked when she stepped out of line. And I know how my mother is...the reason he didn't want her spanking is because my mother doesn't know when to stop. Since I witnessed this with regard to my neice, I KNOW she would have no respect for my rules either.
My parents aren't allowed to speak to my other children because my ex is angry with them for giving me photos of my kids. They are ALL JW's and he treats his "brother and sister" this way...My dad is a MS, my mom a pioneer...both in excellent standing. So while I know that they would try to preach to my kids, I can't in good conscience keep my kids away from them and hurt them further. I can make rules which they can choose to abide by, or I can be strict and make SURE they abide by them. But trust me, if my mom was like Sally with my kid, I would put the kabosh on that REAL quick.
Morbidz, that's the biggest reason I posted this thread. You cannot trust them to do the right thing when WTS tells them that whatever WTS says is the only right thing.
I also posted because of my last thought in the opening post- "...my wife would not even consider responding to my comments and instead, abruptly changed the subject." I cannot do anything about Sally. She already knows she is overstepping. It sounds like her daughter-in-law is clearly seeing that. But I had hoped my wife would see the problem here. NOPE. It's "the truth." Of course you gotta sneak it in to your grandkids. While she didn't verbalize that, it is what she processed as she thought so highly of "Sally."
Yeah, OTWO, it's pretty sick that contradicting a child's parents is seen as okay and even admirable when it's done "for Jehovah".
However, let's say that Sally's daughter-in-law had parents who were Mormon. Now, Sally's son allows his children to visit them as well and lo and behold, they try to talk to the children about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. How would Sally feel about that? How would your wife feel about that? Guaranteed, it would be "different because they're not teaching those kids the Truth!". Yet, the behavior, the contradicting of the parents is still the same. So what gives the JW the right to do it, and not the LDS?
A step further...let's say that Sally's son was visiting non-JW grandparents who decided to tell him that indeed, people go to heaven and Jesus died on a cross... Would not Sally be ultra-pissed that her child was being taught something CONTRARY to what she was teaching him?
Your wife needs to understand that it's not the CONTENT of what is being said, it's the CONTRADICTION of the parents and telling the children that the people they look up to most in this world are lying to them. In my mind, they're no better than Satan telling Eve that god (her father) was keeping something from her and lying to her and that no she would NOT die if she ate the fruit. It's telling the child something completely different and usurping the parents' right to raise their children how they see fit.
Wow...that was a rant, now wasn't it? LOL
We have a very different situation, OTWO, as you know.
We are atheists, both my wife and I, and we are responsible for raising our grandchildren for the past 8 years now. [Hence the reason your thread title caught my eye.] My daughter, though out of the picture, incarcerated and unlikely to ever gain custody again - vacilates between religious/non-religious opinion. Our approach has been to allow freethought within our home [as would be expected by humanists/secularists I suppose]. We do not throttle discussion of religion - though we strongly encourage thoughtful consideration of matters before taking a stand for any supposed ideology without logical proof thereof. We do allow the children, on the rare occasion in which they petition, to attend church with the neighbor kids. I suppose we have an agenda there too, though unintentional, of allowing them to see for themselves the silliness of religion.
But - and this is BIG BUT - if either of them ever wished to attend any religion that we have determined to be high-control/cult-like - the answer would be a sound NO. And we would discuss the reasons clearly and logically with them - but the answer would not waver. We have absolutely poisoned the well for them regarding Jehovah's Witnesses - they will never listen to those people. Or at least I can not imagine they would.
I am not interested in killing their free will - but I am telling it like it is - there is no point in the next generation making the same mistakes as the previous one.
For those curious as to how this affects the mother's view - well honestly, since I am raising her children due to her own lack of interest in being responsible, and I have full legal rights to do so - I am raising them as though they are my own. And I fully expect that we will raise them until they are adult [the oldest is nearly 13 now, and mom is still behind bars - once she is released, and IF she flies straight - she might be in a position to seek custody in 3 or 4 years - and that is unlikely to be honest from what we know.]
But, if we were a typical family - if the grandkids visited us, we would never foist our strong opinions on them unwillingly or without parental consent. I believe those Jw/cult types that do so are completly out of line. If I were a parent with little children, and had Jw parents who would do that - I am sorry, but those parents would be denied access.
Jeff
Always worth the repeating:
NEVER EVER leave your children alone with a Jehovah's Witless. They see it as an OPPORTUNITY.
HB
The sad part is indoctrination may be the least of your worries.
They hide pedophiles; so when you leave your children with a witless you may be inadvertently exposing them to a bunch of perverts.
What is so sad is how blind witnesses are to the offense they cause. They cannot see that pushing literature at a funeral for someone who does not share their beliefs is in poor taste and inappropriate. They cannot see that when people are struggling to make sense of their grief that it is not the time to push their point of view. They cannot see that they are behaving offensively and therefore people will want to avoid them. They have no sense of boundaries or how to position their beliefs whilst respecting someone elses point of view.
Sally could have said "We all take comfort in our own way, it is so nice that we remember them as god does." She doesn't need to contradict the parents and would not be offending anyone.
I would put it to your wife that this woman has suffered the loss of a child, she is in pain and needs empathy and understanding at this time. She does not need to be criticised for what she believes and how she gives comfort to her children. Unless Sally learns to show respect for her pain and her position she is likely to be kept at bay and will not be a significant part of their lives. It won't matter what Sally regards as truth if she makes herself repellant to the family. Her "truth" delivered in a guided missile can only be destructive.
They are so arogant sometimes you just want to slap them.
Nugget and Morbidz, my wife needs to know many things and be told them by me. But it's virtually literally the fingers in the ear when she hears something bad about the cult. Thanks for your input though.
LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!!!!!
AK-Jeff, I have every confidence that you would recognize the right thing to do if your grandkids were told lies that could hurt them. While this thread is about drawing the line in the right place, I agree that your line is drawn in the right place.
Hamsterbait, excellent to remember.
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb, that is also excellent to remember. In this case, I am positive that the grandparents are not pedos. But that doesn't mean the grandkids are "safe."
OTWO- Very interesting experience. Thanks for posting it. As time goes by it sure becomes more and more obvious that Jehovah's witnesses aren't only a mind control cult but an organization that teaches it's people to NOT observe personal boundaries. This JW grandmother is a classic example of that. She has no right disrespecting the childrens parents wishes, yet she does so anyway. Not recognizing boundaries is a big red flag that makes JW's a cult just like other mind control organizations
