by Christ Alone 89 Replies latest watchtower bible
Nobody is defending that stupid film.
In what way have I misrepresented the meaning of Justin Martyrs words?
i thought you were defending at least part of it because you bring up dionysus.
if you have read Juston Martyr it in its entirety, i dont know how you can conclude that he was admitting or suggesting that the writers of the NT were borrowing from pagan gods. or that they are no different. i mean, did you read chapter 23? how can you reconsile that with what you are saying?
yourmomma - No if you read my posts in this thread you will see that nobody is defending the film although fulltimestudent did post an interesting rebuttal of the video in the OP.
The problem is we have two extreme positions - there are those who see evidence of pagan influence in the gospels in every verse and on the other hand there are biblical literalists like Christ Alone who is so wedded to the concept of inerrancy he won't listen to any of it.
The truth lies somewhere in between. Gospel writers did borrow from pagan mythology. They didn't copy those stories verbatim but they did adapt them to show that their god-man was better than all the pagan god-men.
Dionysus is a good example. Contrary to some commentators I am certain Jesus is not closely based on the life of Dionysus, however the particular incident with the wine miracle is an obvious example of pagan influence. The differences in the two accounts do not negate this any more than the differences between Romeo and Juliet and West Side Story prove that Bernstein didn't adapt Shakespeare's play.
When Christ Alone denies the connection because Dionysus miraculously filled three jars while Jesus filled six, it is typical of the lack of objectivity of those who are committed to defend the gospels at any cost.
I already explained a couple of times why I referred to Justin Martyr. In his First Apology he uses the similarity of Jesus' story to pagan mythology concerning the "sons of Jupiter" to reassure the Emperor that they are not teaching anything radically new.
My use of Martyr is in context, but I don't think you have looked carefully enough at what I actually wrote.
There are a few other interesting examples of pagan influence in the gospels. I will see if I can find the details and post them later.
I don't even argue these things anymore.
It's pretty academic at this point that the Bible is very much influenced by other myths and legends.
Only that little thing called 'faith' would make a person fly in the face of both discernable and circumstantial evidence to 'believe' against the odds.
And you cant argue with 'faith'.
'Faith' is resistant to fact or proof.
'Faith' doesn't need these things.
In fact, when presented with evidence to the contrary, 'faith' has a weird little propensity to grow STRONGER.
Cofty is quoting some very well-known and academically sound material. He's absolutely correct.
But it makes no difference in an argument with 'faith'.
It drives me nuts...willfull shielding.
So, as I mentioned...I stopped having these arguments.
There were as to be expected a long list of what the gods of the many varied different gods that were worshiped in ancient times
were said have done or were going to do for the select ones that worshiped these gods. A great basket of mystical stories were told to create a sense
of connecting relevance toward these worshiped gods, equally as well to create relevant importance to those individuals whom were known to be
mortal seers toward these gods of these civilizations.
Being that these tribal civilizations had inter mingled on occasion for numerous reasons, it would be only logical to assume that there were
spiritual beliefs drawn from one and another (plagiarized) as a means to elevate their god to equal or higher power.
Human sociological behavior was apparent in ancient times just as it exists today.
One can see this even in more practical terms by driving down any main street in a city and see the competition between the deity seers
in are modern era.
My use of Martyr is in context, but I don't think you have looked carefully enough at what I actually wrote.
thats baffling that you can say that in light of my response, but im not getting into a whole thing about this. i canot see how a christian (Martyr) who believes that pagan gods are the result of demons copying the old testament, and who states that such writers were AFTER theirs (christians), and specificly states he is not saying the same things as those (pagan)writers, then at the same time some how claims the NT writers borrowed from the pagan gods, and its no different. that makes no sense, and its not what he is saying at all.
there isnt really anything else i can say about that. perhaps the term "abusing" the text was strong and insulting, so i apologise for that. i should have said taking it out of context.
What about Robin Hood? Real or legend?
There are stories in song of wondrous and heroic acts performed by this man that started springing up right after they allegedly happened - not hundreds of years later, although the embellishments that came along later are what we're most familiar with today. He was considered a rallying point against tyranny and oppression who stole from the rich and gave to the poor, despite being sorely mistreated. Actually, there is more evidence of his being a true historical figure than Jesus if you were to use the same standards of evidence but he's mostly referred to as a legend, or an amalgam of various historical characters. And what about his 'band of merry men'? Were they real or artistic license? When does one begin and the other end?
There's one notable Truth to all of the stories of the ancient gods which is that they were all embellished.
Told to inspire obtainable relevance for the people who worshiped each god or gods.
What about Apollonius of Tyana who also lived in Tarsus at the very time Paul was alive. Apparently A of T, healed the sick, flew, and all sorts of miracles. He had quite a following. If fact if you compare Pauls and Apollonius travels it can be argued they are copies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana
Little is certainly known about him. Being a 1st-century orator and philosopher around the time of Christ , he was compared with Jesus of Nazareth by Christians in the 4th century [3] and by various popular writers in modern times.
In the 2nd century the satirist Lucian of Samosata was a sharp critic of Neo-Pythagoreanism. After 180 AD he wrote a pamphlet where he attacked Alexander of Abonoteichus , a student of one of Apollonius’ students, as a charlatan ; and suggested that the whole school was based on fraud . [29
Its funny how earlier in this thread and others the same names keep popping up. The same apologists who claim JC is genuine but if someone else does super human feats they mst be liars and frauds. Times change but people dont, epseically xian apologists.
I am currently drinking right now and stumbled (figuratively, not literally) into this thread and was reminded of some reading notes I wrote for one of my classes for religious studies. I don't know if it will contribute anything of worth to the discussion, but I guess that will be in the eye of the reader. Remember, these are just reading notes so they will be kind of dry with no actual point to make...
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xi53oj
Mebaqqer
Whether I will revisit this thread to contribute something more substatial (if I am able) I do not know... BTW it is supposed to be "raising the dead," not "rising the dead."
BTW, if you are curious what I am drinking (and I am sure you could care less), it is this:
http://www.shmaltzbrewing.com/HEBREW/genesis_messiah.html
Mebaqqer
