did the apostle paul really know jesus ?

by mP 51 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  mP

  @MidgetSasquatch

  While it would obviously help refute my question, if Paul did meet and spend days with Jesus it is not really important to addressing the problem. Paul himself never states that he met anyone who knew jesus either personally or perhaps was lucky and ran into him during his ministry.

  As ialready states the last supper is not unique to Jesus, it also existed in many other religions. I forgot to include Judaism also has a last supper event called the passover. We could summary the passover to just bread and wine as symbols.

  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/phm/chapter_001.htm

  3 May YOU people have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.

  4 I always thank my God when I make mention of you in my prayers, 5 as I keep hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the holy ones; 6 in order that the sharing of your faith may go into action by your acknowledging of every good thing among us as related to Christ. 7 For I got much joy and comfort over your love, because the tender affections of the holy ones have been refreshed through you, brother.

  8 For this very reason, though I have great freeness of speech in connection with Christ to order you to do what is proper, 9 I am exhorting you rather on the basis of love, seeing that I am such as I am, Paul an aged man, yes, now also a prisoner for the sake of Christ Jesus; 10 I am exhorting you concerning my child, to whom I became a father while in my [prison] bonds, O·nes´i·mus, 11 formerly useless to you but now useful to you and to me. 12 This very one I am sending back to you, yes, him, that is, my own tender affections.

  This is hardly proof, its just the name. It does not show the author actually was aware of Jesus or his ministry. This is important as fraudulent letters were a real problem and there are many scholars that have commented that at key spots some new words were inserted into scripture.
• 

  mP

  @bandOnTheRun

  Yes most people know that Paul preached about the Lord and the ressurrection and thats about all we know about his message on this matter. It still leaves the very real possibility that Paul and jesus/apostles are completely different sects or religions. Most of your comments about him meeting the apostles comes from Acts, and there in lies the problem.

  If Paul met the apostles why didnt he mention or at the very least wish them well ?
• 

  Midget-Sasquatch

  @mP

  I don't think they were two separate religions to begin with. I think Paul did try to associate himself with the earliest Jesus followers but more with the attitude that he was a newly chosen apostle and was given more critical revelations that everyone should know.

  Paul did say in his letter to the Galatians, that he eventually met some of the apostles, but only very briefly. Mind you, he didn't think too highly of them. He flatly says they didn't impress him much. I'd say he had an antipathy towards the "so called pillars" or leaders of the Jerusalem Community, and co-opted the movement.
• 

  transhuman68

  LOL, I had to go back and read the Jesuspuzzle webpage again! It's all good. The funny thing is, Paul was a mystic- one of those who believed in seven levels of heaven, so his references to a human Christ may not refer to the Jesus we think we know; rather a spirit being who decends and ascends through the levels of heaven.
• 

  mP

  @transhuman86

  Personally its hard to tell what Paul thought, but i will say the fact he changed his name from Saul to Paul tells us something. Apollo = Paul = The Greek god of the Sun. Its hard to not to see Pauls vision of Christ as anything but the Sun.

  The name change is very important as the name has meaning. We have the same thing occur with Peter who was originally called Simon. The whole name change was done only to make the Jesus will establish his church upon Peter the Rock more poetic.
• 

  tec

  Paul himself never states that he met anyone who knew jesus either personally or perhaps was lucky and ran into him during his ministry.

  Yes he does.

  Galatians 1:18,19 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles - only James, the Lord's brother.

  He actually speaks at length in chapter one and two about his relations with those who walked with Christ, including James, who was Christ's brother.

  You keep doing this thing, mP, where you state something that just is not true. How many times is that going to happen before you realize you don't know as much about the bible, the gospel, Christ, etc, as you think you know?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  transhuman68

  Yeah, but this is weird, tec:

  Galatians 1:19

  King James Version (KJV)

  19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother

  20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

  Galatians 2:9

  King James Version (KJV)

  9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

  Why would Paul have to say he wasn't lying? And why did James, Cephas, and John just seem to be pillars- if they were apostles?
• 

  mP

  @tec

  im sorry galatians only says lord and jesus it does not mention a single thing from his ministry. please include your quotes for others to reference.

  this scripture is easily explained, some scribe while copying inserted jesus becsuse he thought this clarified the message of the text. even today we have the same practice in the nwt, where the wts replace lord with jehovah in the nt on many occassions. i could give other highlights of this where copiests changed the text for ckarity or theology.

  the fact remains paul still mentions nothing of jesus ministry. if we were to read the works of paul, the only thing we might learn of jesus is that he died for us. no apostles, no miracles, no kingdom, no ressurrection, nothing. that hardly sounds like someone with an knowledge let alone enough to be a leader in jesus new church.
• 

  tec

  Saying he wasn't lying about what? That he met the Lord's brother? That he saw no other apostles? Because he was talking about how what he received was not from men, but from Christ himself. What he learned came from Christ... not men.

  So not really weird, other than he is writing a letter to people who are no longer believing or following his ministry. He simply sounds e x asperated.

  Pillars does not have to = apostle. Such as the title. How about pillars as in e x emplary?

  My version says 'reputed' to be pillars, which might be why I understand in as in reputation, rather than position.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  mP

  @transhuman68

  are we to believe that paul knew jesus becsuse he mentions three names, one which of which is almost never used for peter, or cephas. the gospels almost always use peter, cephas is almost never used, tnus it would seem strange that paul would use the wrong name. john and james were very popular names in judea, there might have been many others in the church with the same name. we have the same problem with revelation, just because he calls himself john doesnt mesn he was jesusapostle john.

  those twomscriotures ingalatians amount to a dozen words, and hardly show that paul knew jesus. again the challenge is if paul knew jesus why didnt he mention the ministry.