by TheRecordCollector 32 Replies latest jw experiences
I believe in what is rationnal presently. That mean that presently, I believe in the theory of evolution but, if someone arrive with a better explanation (the theory of creation isn't a better explanation), I'll believe in it.
Black holes are where God divided by zero.
So what happened, that changed your doctrinal views?
Man IS a soul,
If man is NOT a JW, maybe. A JW isn't anything. They should adopt the doctrine of "man IS a zombie inside the Babble and Crackpot org.
Christ was CREATED,
Nope. He was the result of an outside marriage sex-encounter. Of course, that might not have been all that poplular, so they invented a god for the occation. I know a girl who claimed to be christian, standing in the court where the judge wanted to know the name of the father of the child. He was asked by the girl if he was christian - and she said there were no father. She had never had sex with anyone, and was still a virgin. The religious moron at the bar didn't believe her.
Let's say I'm just as sceptical to people fucking back in old Israel blaming Smokey for the action.
Holy Spirit a real person, or God's active force?
Smokey is just what you feel monday morning, if you're superstitious. Smokey is just an invention to free everyone from responsibility. Blame Smokey, God or Satan. Doesn't matter - you're not to blame no matter what!
Religion is all about psychological crutches!
Do you still believe in hell as "the common grave"?
Nope. Hell is having to endure a Watchtower Study in a KH.
Yachyd Da
Kent
I need the new KM's as they come! Please send me scans!
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://watchtower.observer.org
I go with what 2SYN said; I believe in what we can rationally and scientifically know, and that excludes religious mumbo jumbo, whether it's from Jehovah's Witnesses or any other religion. Think about the teaching on the difference between soul and spirit - and how impossible it is to really have an answer to the dilemma. It's like arguing about how many buttons are on Thor's vest (or if Thor had a vest!). It's a myth, for Christ's sake!
For Wind Rider and the others who are struggling to know what they believe, you may find that the answers come with time, improving your ability to reason and opening up to studying what we've really come to know about this amazing world in which we live. I also was a JW for 35 years - so I've been where you are now.
I struggled with what I was going to tell my children, and what the answers were to whether there was a god, an afterlife, heaven, hell, demons, an immortal soul, etc.
The conclusion I came to was that these are all myths that mankind has been telling itself for millenia - all because of our fear of death, and to reassure ourselves that "someday" things will be better.
The evidence for any of these things is simply non-existent, so I decided to no longer waste my time trying to answer unanswerable questions. To me the questions Record Collector asked are the same as asking - Was Pinocchio created? Does Santa really live at the North Pole? Did Cinderella really live happily ever after with Prince Charming? Every shred of evidence about THOSE particular aspects of religious belief indicates that ALL of it is myth and story.
What DO we KNOW? Here's where I focus. We have this life right now and it is important that we not waste it. A loving life brings us happiness. Relationships based on love, compassion and respect give our lives meaning. Satisfying work that accomplishes things and that gives us a sense of fulfillment is extremely important in a person's life. Improving the lot of others and leaving this world in some way better than we found it are worthwhile goals.
These ideas seem a lot more useful to give your children - and yourself - than to try to teach them about imaginary doctrine and invisible creatures that fail to make any real sense when examined critically.
Think about it. Why do those religious ideas even come up at all? Why do you feel you HAVE to have THESE kind of answers about heaven, hell, the soul? Essentially because that's what our cultures have taught the majority of people to believe. And why? To make them feel good, to make them obedient, to make them put up with horrible conditions that generally mean slavery of a sort - to a government, to a religion or to a leader.
Freeing one's mind from these superstitions will go a long way toward allowing us to be happy with what we know we have, and happy to make it better if possible.
S4
Interesting points, Seeker4......I try to be as rational as I can. Knowing what is real has always been a driving force for me, that and making myself accept it, however painful that may be at times.
Having been a Witness as long as I have, Im sure you can relate that drastically changing our lifelong beliefs takes time and each of us come to "moments of truth" at varying paces. I know Skeptic is an Atheist and he has been so helpful to me in pointing me to various sources for research. We have some amazing, and even heated discussions on the subject of God's existence.(fortunately, when our feathers get too ruffled, we always seem to kiss and make-up! It kinda makes the whole thing worthwhile right there!) but the point is that he has opened my eyes to so many things that previously were inconceivable to me and I am taking it all in, even when I cant allow myself just yet to verbally concede his point.
I think when you've gone so long being duped, then you are not in a hurry to do a complete turn around and decide you believe the complete opposite (in this case, not believing in God) I just want to be very sure this time, in my own heart and mind, without anyone influencing me, before I determine what I believe and esp. before I begin teaching my children this.
Secretly? (you wont tell anybody will you?)I have known deep in my heart for alittle while, that someday, someday soon, I would have to acknowledge that everything I am learning points away from a creator, certainly the God of the worlds religions; and that if there is no God, then the other points become moot: afterlife, Heaven, Hell, etc. Now the hard part, letting go of the emotional need for there to be something more out there, someone wiser and loving who cares about me, will help me through the difficulties of this life and perhaps offer something better in an afterlife. Does that make sense?
The strange thing to me is that, while the thought of there being no God leaves me overwhelmed with a sense of aloneness in this vast universe, yet at the same time, when I really let it begin to seep in it becomes very exciting to me: we determine our own futures, our own sense of right and wrong, the sky is the limit(or the universe as it were) to what we can accomplish, and best of all, there is no one standing in the wings deciding when He will make his entrance and end life as we know it and decide who lives and dies and for those who live, what and how they shall live!
Ok, so do I sound totally mixed up here. Really Im not; it is just that I think one must go through many conflicting and mixed feelings when they are on this journey of finding straight answers....or at least the most plausible ones.
Sorry if Im rambling, this thread has just really made alot of things gel for me inside and come together, so Im just writing out my thoughts as they come.
Love your posts Seeker,
Windrider
Windrider,
Actually what you wrote makes total sense to me - it is exactly what I went through over the past 7 years. And I think at some point, just like you, I knew where it was all leading - away from belief in the god of religion.
And rather than finding that this all brought on despair and sadness, (as we were led to believe it would when we were JWs) it was just the opposite. It left me with a huge sense of excitement about the possibility of life, and the wonderful knowledge that my life was MY responsibility - not the elder's in the congregation, not a bunch of old men in Bethel, and not even some supreme father-figure in heaven. Nope - my life was MINE. Rejoice in it or screw it up - it was all up to me.
This has filled me with such a sense of joy and excitement that I've hardly been able to catch my breath for the past few years!! I have a feeling the same is going to be true for you.
I wish you the greatest joy on your new adventure.
S4
WindRider,
There you go, making me blush again! Don't forget that you keep finding flaws in my logic as well. Even skeptics and atheists can fall prey to bad logic. I like it when you keep me on my toes.
One thing I greatly admire about you is your honesty with yourself, both intellectually and otherwise. It does not bother me if someone believes in God or not, as long as there is no harm from it and they are honest about why they believe as they do.
Ok, so do I sound totally mixed up here. Really Im not; it is just that I think one must go through many conflicting and mixed feelings when they are on this journey of finding straight answers....or at least the most plausible ones.You are right, conflicting feelings and conflicting beliefs are part of the journey...but the journey is well worth it in the end.
Seeker4, I have found the same thing...the joy of being able to make my own moral decisions is the most liberating thing there is. No more do I have to accept or act on a belief that makes no sense. Nor do I have to do something I disagree with and suffer for it (well, rarely).
Richard
kent
Religion is all about psychological crutches!
My ex–BF from pre JW days used to say this. I just found out from his sister he OD from cocaine 4 yrs ago. Other gods can be a crutch too. Alcohol food, drugs,sex, money, gambeling etc. we all worship something.
Crazy is doing the same thing over and over again when it doesn't work.
My ex–BF from pre JW days used to say this. I just found out from his siter he OD from cocaine 4 yrs ago. Other gods can be a crutch too. Alcohol food, drugs,sex, money, gambaling etc.
Very good point. There are many crutches people turn to. Religion is one of many possible crutches.
A side point about atheists (I do not know if your ex-BF is an atheist or not)...some people become atheists for emotional reasons and not rational ones. One fellow became an atheist because his Christian father used to beat his atheist mother. Understandable, but not a solid reason to not believe in God. However, his honesty is good to see.
It is best to ask an atheist why he believes as he does. Then his reasoning can be evaluated.
we all worship something.I strongly disagree. This statement never made sense to me even when I was deeply religious. I know a number of people who do not worship anything or anyone. And saying, "They worship themselves." is a cop out.
Richard, who worships WindRider
Hmmm - Worship an angry, punishing god with lots of nonsense rules or
"...Alcohol, food, drugs, sex, money, gambeling etc. we all worship something."
Your gods sound like more fun, Imbue! (only partly kidding - I don't gamble or do drugs!)
And I have to agree with Skeptic - don't really see that we all worship something, not unless you twist the idea of worship around to encompass ideas that it really doesn't include. The WTS used to do that, saying whatever you focus your life on is what you "worship." Bullshit.
S4
