The Exodus account again, don,t want to beat A dead horse, but.

by jam 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • jam
    jam

    This account is fascinating to me. We have discuss on

    another topic the distance or the journey from Egypt

    to the promised land. A short journey from Egypt

    to Canaan by the most direct route, A splended

    highway ran up the coast through the country of

    the Philistines and the distance was over 250 miles,

    or about A month journey. Because of their lack of faith

    it took A little longer, about 39yrs, and 10 months.

    The lord never intended that Israel should fight their way

    into the promised land or conquer it by warfare(oh really).

    He promised to fight their battles for them and to drive

    out the inhabitants (children, babies, blind, seniors, in

    other words the weak also). How was he (God) to drive

    them out. Exodus 23;27,28 hornets, hailstones and

    plagues. (sweet guy).

    Question: The time frame and distance they journey before

    God blinded them. For example, If the Israelites arrived at

    Mt Sinai 45 days after leaving Egypt. hell they could have

    reach the promised land.

  • Diest
    Diest

    Based on the bible many people think 3 million people left Egypt (600k men plus women and children) Which is facinating when you think that the first city with 1 million people was Rome, and it was 1200 years after the exodus. How did such a large group of people feed themselves after the exodus? How did they even get 3 million to begin with?

    The more I look at Exodus the more I realize that it is a dubious story at best.

  • jam
    jam

    Diest: exactly, when you look closely or think about

    the remote possibility for this story to be true, not

    possible. Maybe A few hundred left, and the story grew.

  • mP
    mP

    Forget the 3 million, apparently just 200 years before there were only 80ish in Jacobs family when they made the trip down to Egypt. How they managed to grow from 80 to 3000,000 is the untold miracle of Exodus.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    C'mon guys. Every woman of breeding age was pregnant all the time. It's that simple. And the Israelites were popping out little girls by the dozens, only having enough little boys to spread their seed to bunches of women when they grew up. Man, what a life in that time for a guy. Everyone, even the poorest guy, had a harem. And once your lady was pregnant, you could skip her and spend time with the next wife.

    You guys do know that as long as there is a ridiculous explanation, someone will believe it. I mean, people are falling for the "overlap" explanation.

    And God was fully testing the Israelites that first 45 days and God removed all evidence of His miraculous feeding and caring for the Israelites all those years.

    Ha ha, I cannot believe it either.

  • jam
    jam

    One other question I forgot to ask. Did Moses

    inform the people that some of you will have to

    die before we reach the land of milk and honey?

    That would no doubt creat some unexplain early

    deaths. Everyone waiting for the old folfs to die

    off, so we can get out of the God forsaken desert.

  • mP
    mP

    @OnTheWayOut

    - Lets also assume the original 80 were half women.

    - Lets assume after 20 years a kid could have their own family and kids.

    - Each couple can have kids for 20 years.

    After the first generation there are 800.

    1st

    80/2 * 10 = 800

    2nd

    400 couples x 10 =

    400/2 * 10 = 4000

    3rd

    2000 couples x 10 =

    4000/2 * 10 = 20000

    4th

    10000 couples x 10

    20000/2 * 10 = 100,000

    5th

    50000 couples x 10

    100,000 * 10 = 1,000,000

    6th

    500,000 couples x 10

    1,000,000/2 * 10 = 5,000,000

    - 200 years

    - 6 generations because each couple needs 20 years to have the required kids.

    - after 6 generations and 200 years our count is about 5M less the lost first few generations.

    - assuming that half the kids died before adulthood which is a fair assumption each couple would need to have 20 kids.

    - if a woman died in childbirth then the other women would need to have more kids to make up the lost potential.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Actually, if you carefully follow the narrative in Exodus and Numbers, virtually nothing is related regarding those 40 years. The first year of wandering is described in exquisite detail and then it skips ahead to the last year, which again is described with much detail. Nothing is really related of the time in between. They are merely encamped in the Wilderness of Zin, i.e. within the territory of Edom. One easily gains an impression that a narrative of a sojourn lasting about two years has been artificially expanded into 40 years.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The biblical story (actually there are several versions of the story in the OT) of the exodus is legendary but also it likely draws on semi-historical elements. The same is the case with the late Mesopotamian legends of Semiramis and the late Egyptian legends of Sesostris and Osarsiph (both of which likely influenced Jewish traditions about Moses); these three legendary figures are loosely based on historical figures. The biblical story likely draws on a range of originally independent and heterogenous traditions and combines them into a single national epic; the biblical story has connections with the Hyksos expulsion at the beginning of the 18th Dynasty, the Typhonic myth dating much earlier to the Middle Kingdom but popular later on as well (= the plagues story), the situation involving Asiatics in Egypt during the 19th Dynasty, the Egyptian Osarsiph legend which was inspired by the historical Akhenaten in the 18th Dynasty, and the upheaval and collapse of Egyptian hegemony that occurred in the 20th Dynasty (at the end of the LBA). Many traditions are thus telescoped and elaborated in a single epic story; the story of Nimrod in Genesis similarly draws on several figures widely separated in time and space. The legend of Semiramis is ultimately based on a historical figure, the Assyrian Queen Shammuramat of the 9th century BC, but attributes to her deeds actually done by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II in the 6th century BC. All of this is typical of legends (compare, for example, Arthurian legend).

    There was not a single time when Asiatics ancestral to later Israel came to Egypt. There were population movements back and forth for centuries. The biblical notion of the entire nation of Israel being descended from a single family had a unifying political objective, but it isn't history. The swelling population of Semites in Egypt during the New Kingdom was not due to a single family growing to a whole nation but because of successive deportations of captives from military campaigns in Canaan to Egypt, as well as normal immigration during the time when Canaan was an Egyptian province -- leading to a significant population of Egyptian-born Asiatics. The Hyksos came to Egypt in the 18th and 17th centuries BC, and these people after being expelled from Egypt contributed to the population of Canaan. The Semites living in Lower Egypt during the 13th and 12th centuries BC (including those descended from exiles taken by Ramesses II and Merneptah) who left Egypt during the political turmoil of the 20th Dynasty also likely contributed to the population of early Israel. There are no early records of an "exodus" along grand biblical lines, although later writers associated Manetho's description of two major exoduses from Egypt (the expulsion of the Hyksos at the outset of the 18th Dynasty and the expulsion of "defiled" priests in the 19th or 20th Dynasty) with the Israelite exodus. Many records exist of Semites taken captive into Egypt, although these are not of Jews or Israelites per se -- with the exception of the Israelites exiled by Merneptah. These were taken captive in 1206 BC when the people of Israel was already present in the highlands. The literary and historical evidence persuades me that if there was a historical basis of the exodus (other than the older Hyksos traditions), it occurred in the twelfth century BC when Israel was already in place in the highlands. There is much evidence for "Israel" in the land of Canaan long before this time, e.g. the reference to Israel in the Merneptah Stele, the reference to "Asher" in Canaan in monuments of Seti I and Ramesses II and "Zakkur" (= Issachar) as the name of a Canaanite district as early as Thutmose III. The names of other tribes reflect their origin in situ in Canaan, e.g. Benjamin ("sons of the south", the southern location of Benjamin), Ephraim ("fertile soil," as a key agricultural region), Naphtali ("height", as it is in the highlands), etc.

    I think it is likely that the exodus traditions conflate various legends and reminiscences of the LBA, and among these are possibly memories of Akhenaten. However the resemblence is closest with late Egyptian legends inspired by Akhenaten (the Osarsiph tale and variants thereof), not the historical pharaoh. And there is much in the narratives that demand a later date, e.g. the thirteenth and twelfth centuries BC. The references to Pi-Ramesses and the "land of Ramesses" reflect the situation in the 19th and 20th Dynasties, not earlier; Pi-Ramesses hadn't been built yet, much less was there yet the pharoah that was its namesake. P. Leiden 348 from the reign of Ramesses II refers to 'Apiru laborers in the construction of Pi-Ramesses, P Anastasi V refers to runaway Asiatic slaves escaping from Pi-Ramesses to beyond the fort of Tjeku and the Migdol of Seti I (cf. the Migdol of Exodus 14:2), and Papyrus Anastasi VI makes reference to Pithom where Shasu from Edom sought water for their flocks. The proximity of Pharaoh's palace with the foreign settlements in Lower Egypt fits well with the situation in the 19th and 20th Dynasties (as well as with the 15th in the Second Intermediate Period), and not the 18th. Also the reference to the Philistines in Exodus 13:17 points to a time in the 20th Dynasty, and this is not mere anachronism since the Philistines also figure in the very early Song of the Sea (Exodus 15:14-15), and the references to the Philistines, the "chiefs of Edom", the "leaders of Moab" and the "people of Canaan" reflects the situation in the twelfth century BC, as does the allusion to the Sea Peoples in the Balaam oracle in Numbers 24:24. The tribe of Dan was also likely one of the Sea Peoples engaged against Egypt (the Danuna/Denyen/Danaoi, cf. Judges 5:17 and the location of Danite settlement next to the Philistines in Joshua 19 and Judges 14-16, and the implication in the Blessing of Jacob that Dan was originally not among the tribes of Israel), and the priest of the tribe of Dan at the time of the relocation to Laish is named as Jonathan the grandson of Moses (Judges 18:30), which more felicitously points to a timeframe in the twelfth century BC for Moses than earlier, especially since Aaron's grandson Phinehas was also still alive just before the accession of Samuel (cf. 20:28). The toponym may`an MĂȘnepto a ch "spring of Merneptah" in Joshua 15:9, 18:15, marking the border between Judah and Benjamin, is a probable reflection of Merneptah's campaign (why else would a place in Canaan bear Merneptah's name?), and thus the conquest narrative includes a place name that could not have been named before the reign of Merneptah (late thirteenth century BC). There is also the curious statement in Exodus 23:28: "I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites, and Hittites out of your way" (cf. Deuteronomy 7:20). Some have suggested that this is a reference to the Egyptian military (cf. the use of the hornet in Egyptian hieroglyphics as a sign for the king of Lower Egypt), with the implication that the "Israelite conquest" is preceded by destructive campaigns by the Egyptians in the land. This again fits the picture with the twelfth century BC, not an earlier time.

    The main thing is that the biblical story assembles traditions from different tribes into a single, linear narrative -- such that the whole nation participates in the saga of exodus and conquest, with the descent of all the tribes (or rather sons of Jacob) into Egypt occurring at the same time, the escape from captivity occuring all at the same time (therefore requiring improbable numbers of Israelites wandering in the wilderness), and conquest of all the cities of Canaan occurring in one fell swoop (as it is presented in Joshua). And this is why no one will never find evidence for one single catastrophic exodus from Egypt in history and archaeology, or evidence of a single devastating "conquest" of Canaan. In the case of the latter, there is no doubt that the various cities mentioned in Joshua were destroyed at different times in the fifteenth to the twelfth centuries BC. And the biblical data itself contains countless discontinuities and details that betray the independent origin of traditions outside the "canonical" narrative. So what we have in the OT is a conflation of reminiscences of events spanning over several hundred years across a dozen or more tribal groups compressed into a single epic story. It is natural for this to be case, as simplification is a basic process in folklore and oral tradition.

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    Some light reading for you: http://www.box.com/shared/uclytd91jd The Atheists book of bible stories is a great read.

    There's also tons of serious research into the bible and it's history and Israel and it's history and gods out there. Most of it easily shows the bible we have today is a redacted revisionist "history" written in 7th and 6th century bc. i.e most of it never happened.

    The Bible Unearthed makes for an interesting and cheap read on the latest archeological view.

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