What did Raymond Franz believe after his exit?

Botzwana

Did he start believing in the Trinity and Hellfire? I have not read In Search of Christian Freedom yet as I do not have a copy of it. Does he touch on this in that book?

He does touch on it in his book. There is an "Afterword" that goes into what his position is now. He also wrote some essays which you can find over at Commentary Press - Essays. You can also pick up a copy of In Search of Christian Freedom as a *.pdf. It's a great read. One thing he says is:

In summary, then, even as I am convinced that the one true re-
ligion is Christianity itself, not some religious system claiming to
represent and exemplify it, I also believe that the truth is found in
the Scriptures, not in any particular set of interpretations that men have
developed or may yet develop. That truth is not only in the words
themselves but also in the revelation they bring to us of God and of
his Son. We will almost inevitably differ in our understanding on some
points but, if governed by God’s spirit, should have no great difficulty
in agreeing on those teachings clearly and plainly stated.

Actually, the trinity is an interesting subject. It could be argued that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the trinity. The trinity is just man's clumsy way of trying to explain that in order to experience the fullness of God, one needs the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to explain the holy spirit without mentioning God. They are inseparable - one and the same, even. Christ is Jehovah's means of salvation. Don't even bother thinking about salvation if you don't accept the Christ, the Son of God. So, there you have it: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - the three necessary in the one faith.

If a JW was on a doorstep and received that as an answer when he asked, "I find not everybody means the same thing when they say 'trinity'. What do you think it means?" he would be forced to acceed that he, too, believed in the trinity.

I'm pretty sure Raymond Franz didn't go on to believe in hellfire. He always comes across as a level-headed and sensible fellow.

soft+gentle

I have read IN search of Chrisitan Freedom but don't have it to hand. Ray did believe in the trinity and was open to discussion about it with other trinitarians if I remember correctly.

this is an excellent way of putting it rory-ks - the fullness of God. I like the expression fullness and what it evokes

Actually, the trinity is an interesting subject. It could be argued that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the trinity. The trinity is just man's clumsy way of trying to explain that in order to experience the fullness of God, one needs the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to explain the holy spirit without mentioning God. They are inseparable - one and the same, even. Christ is Jehovah's means of salvation. Don't even bother thinking about salvation if you don't accept the Christ, the Son of God. So, there you have it: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - the three necessary in the one faith.

Indded the JW hieararchy don't like fullness of any kind and stamp it out wherever they see it. this is the reason they miss the fullness of Christ. I'm so glad you took the steps you did to get out.

edt: Jw thinking is very much a product of the enlightenment and the emphasis on TRUTH as a system of belief. this to me is opposed to the fullness that Christ intuited and taught and that is eternal

irondork

Actually, soft+gentle, I specifically remember Franz stating in Christian Freedom that he did not believe in the trinity and that the dogmatic "believe in it or burn" approach to the doctrine that many trinitarians have is one of the things he finds distasteful about it. (Not his exact words) My copy of the book is out on loan right now or I would find the quote for you.

What I took from the Afterword of Christian Freedom is that Franz never tried to lay out a set of doctrines for people to follow. He did mention a few items that were contained in his own belief system but for the most part, he encouraged people to study and be led by holy spirit. He emphasised personal responsibility for OUR OWN relationship with god, not one that has been assigned to us by other men.

Chariklo

Actually, the trinity is an interesting subject. It could be argued that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the trinity. The trinity is just man's clumsy way of trying to explain that in order to experience the fullness of God, one needs the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to explain the holy spirit without mentioning God. They are inseparable - one and the same, even. Christ is Jehovah's means of salvation. Don't even bother thinking about salvation if you don't accept the Christ, the Son of God. So, there you have it: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - the three necessary in the one faith.

If a JW was on a doorstep and received that as an answer when he asked, "I find not everybody means the same thing when they say 'trinity'. What do you think it means?" he would be forced to acceed that he, too, believed in the trinity.

This is exceptionally interesting. It comes very close to my own view.

I write from a background of a long life of belief in the Trinity, including theological study and training, and then coming to Jehovah's Witnesses, getting very near to baptism, and subsequently distancing myself from the Witnesses.

As I studied the Bible Teach book with Witnesses, impelled by a wish to understand why they believe what they do...you might call it insatiable curiosity likeKipling's Elephant's Child...I struggled very hard with their non-belief in the Trinity. I knew the Trinity as One God but three Persons, united in their hypostatic union by love, beyond which I understood there to be Mystery beyond our human understanding. I instinctively felt that the WT's presentation of Trinitarian belief as a regression to or reflection of ancient three-person Gods was a gross over-simplification, a caricature. However, over time, and particularly after reading some accounts of Catholic priests who had become Witnesses, I came to think that the JW interpretation was not in fact very far from the truth, and that it was something I could accept without altering my understanding of God too much.

I rather think that I still think much the same, namely, that both understandings of God are necessarily limited by the fact that the Divine Being is very much other than us, the Creator of the Universe being all-powerful and Almighty and so beyond our comprehension; yet this is a being who is our personal and collective Father in Heaven, to whom every small thing, even each one of us, even a hair on our head, even a sparrow, matters. The Son is the son of that great being, but also of him. One of the wisest JW's whom I have met, and someone whom I hold in considerable regard, discussed with me at length and in depth some time ago the difference between a son who is begotten and/or created. He asked me to consider the difference between begetting and creating, and the close link between the two. I am probably still contemplating that. And the Holy Spirt, or, as JW's more often say "holy spirit" or "God's spiirit" as the third person of the Trinity is so hard to visulaise and understand by the human mind as a person that to understand the spirit more as God's active force is not in any way counter-intuitive.

So, I came to a point where I could accept the JW interpretation of these deep truths, without in any way, really, altering my own understanding of God, whose name I had known for a very long time to be Jehovah.

I have far more difficullty now in accepting Almighty God, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise and the ultimate Love, as a being who would wipe away most people at Armageddon, or even as one who would send a flood to obliterate everything he had made except those beings in an ark. It just doesn't add up.

I also have difficulty in accepting that any one group of people on earth, or even any one religion, possess the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about God, but that's really another subject.

What I wanted to do here was express my surprised pleasure at reading Rory's words on the trinitarian (or not) understanding of God, the closest to my own that I have yet encountered among JW's.

It's a breath of fresh air.

mP

After all the lies and fabrications of all xian religions, why would anyone believe. Ray saw the WTS lie and change the Bible themselves, didnt it occur to him that others in the past did the very same thing ? What kind of great God cannot even protect his own word from being masterbated upon and changed for evil.?

james_woods

I had a conversation with Ed Dunlap about this before he died.

I think Ed and Ray Franz pretty much believed the same thing on the subject of the Trinity.

While Ed did not like the word "trinity" he definately believed in the divinity of Christ. His favorite way of expressing it was to say that everything we know about Jehovah comes because we know Jesus. Ed believed that Jesus was actually God in the form of a human.

Ed was rather contemptuous of the Watchtower SWociety for diminishing the position of Jesus Christ in theology. In particular, for making themselves "Jesus Jr." as being the faithful and discreet slave (GB).

james_woods

BTW - it is my opinion that neither the Dunlap brothers nor Ray Franz ever believed in the notion of "hellfire".

soft+gentle

heye thanks for correcting me Rory. you are right. Franz believed in the divinity of christ and had many discussions with a trinitarian member of his group. He was open to mixing in company with trinitarians. I somehow conflated the two because I read the book a long time ago. And for me personally whether or not a person believes or doesn't believe in the trinity is immaterial. the thing that I like about leavers is when they engage with the fullness of all that they were denied through totalising belief systems.

WTWizard

I believe that he became a Christian, exactly as the Bible described. That is what he tried to do with the witlesses--bring it into compliance with the Bible.

What did Raymond Franz believe after his exit?

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