What did Raymond Franz believe after his exit?

by Botzwana 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • binadub
    binadub

    slimboyfat:
    Cynthia believes as Ray did. I know of no difference between them in their scriptural views. It is absolutely not true that Cynthia wanted to return to the Watchtower religion. Interestingly, neither Cynthia nor Peter Gregerson's wife were ever disfellowshipped.

    Lozhasleft:
    Yes, to inherit something, or to be GIVEN something, there has to be a Giver in a superior beholding in order to bequeath to another.

    GOrwell:
    Your logic with symantics is escaping me. There's one monarch. A mirror is your reflection, your image, but it's not you. As to what I admit--I'm a Christ-ian.
    And the scriptures don't say that Michael was an angel. (That argument has been hashed and rehashed almost as much as Trinity.)
    However, one could argue that Heb.1:4 says that he has "BECOME as much superior to angels" due to the name he INHERITED.
    I'll let you take the last word on this subject.

    ~Binadub

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    Cynthia believes as Ray did. I know of no difference between them in their scriptural views. It is absolutely not true that Cynthia wanted to return to the Watchtower religion. Interestingly, neither Cynthia nor Peter Gregerson's wife were ever disfellowshipped.

    Was Betty Dunlap ever DFd? I somehow had the impression that she never was - I stayed in touch with her for many years after Ed passed away and never thought to ask about that. Of the people who left during the Ray Franz era in Oklahoma City, I think that only myself and Marion Dunlap were actually DFd - about fifty people left but the local JCs were afraid to DF that many people all at once because of the shock factor.

    Betty was, like Ed, best described as a Christian ex-jw.

    Marion Dunlap's wife Edith, on the other hand, never left the JWs but stubbornly stayed a JW until her death a few years before Marion.

  • binadub
    binadub

    james_woods:
    I think you're right about Betty. I used to be a point of conversation, somewhat a joke, that in the WT Bethel housecleaning in '80-'81, none of their wives were df'd. Intresting.

    ~Binadub

  • GOrwell
    GOrwell

    Thanks ~Binadub for your response. Have a good one!

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Hey Botzwana!

    If you search for "legalism" in the Watchtower library you will find exactly what Ray Franz believed before and after leaving. This article is a neat and powerful summary of ISOCF.

    Ray would not have supported "ethnocentrism" either (supremacist self-righteousness attained by pursuing the supposedly "right" doctrines).

    The same on "moralism".

    The same on "Gnosticism".

    He described "legalism" as a "denial of Christian faith". The same applies to the other three too.

    Ray understood the full or unabridged "good news" to be the opposite of religion and its four pillars above.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo
    My question is: How do Trinitarians reconcile there being only one God if, as they now claim, the three are not one as the WT claimed the doctrine, but three in one?
    the term "one Godhead" is not scriptural to my recollection and does not help the logic.

    Binadub, you're absolutely right, Godhead isn't a Scriptural term. I never thought it was. I was just trying to answer your question, which was how Trinitarians reconcile one God with "three in one" and explain how they also see God, as the Trinity, as "one in three". I wasn't trying to justify it, nor explain it logically, but just help you in understanding Trinitarian thinking, which is what I thought your question sought.

    Thanks for going into the question of Michael again. I studied all that very, very carefully on my way into the Witnesses, and came to the conclusion that maybe I could accept it as possible. i.e. I didn't believe strongly enough that it was impossible for it to prevent me from becoming a Witness.

    One of the big differences between Catholics (and Anglicans, and maybe Episcopalians too for that matter) is that JW's seek reason and logic. (Some might feel that the WT bends Scriptural truth at times to fit a thread of reasoning that it seeks to prove, but that's another matter.) Catholics, particularly, don't. One of the predominant strands of Catholic thinking and worship is mysticism, which I haven't found very evident in WT thinking and practice, although of course I'm aware that my experience of WT thinking is limited. As for Anglicans, they are more likely in some respects to accept anything that feels mainstream, and within Anglicanism is a very wide spectrum of beliefs and doctrines indeed.

    I wasn't answering as a Catholic, Binadub, but just as someone who happens to know Catholic and Anglican doctrine and thinking, through and through, trying to explain, not prove logically.

    Thanks for that link to Mike Brown's site.

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Ros I am the one that brought a ten year post to the surface again " Antichrist"
    I think newbies have the right to see it.
    As for the Trinity.... I believe it. Anyone that dont...Is O.K. with me.

    I only have to answer for Grace Gough when I stand before the only throne that matters to me.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo
    As for the Trinity.... I believe it. Anyone that dont...Is O.K. with me.

    Well said, Mouthy. As far as I am concerned, everyone has a right to their own belief. And a right to have their belief respected.

  • RayPublisher
    RayPublisher

    Ms. Mouthy, James_woods, binadub: Thank you for this insight and perspective on these heroic brothers.

  • panhandlegirl
    panhandlegirl

    Thanks for all the infor in this thread. Although I have had Ray's book "In Search of Christian Freedom" I have not read it. I read COC years ago. I am also going to watch "The Third Man." One of the things I like about this site is

    the different views that I am exposed to. I have my own views but consider what others have to say.

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