No answer to this one! (page 3)

baltar447

I wanted to break this down in case the weight of this is lost on anyone

If you've followed what's been going on in Australia, it was reported that a letter was sent out to congos in Aus to attempt to skirt the working with children registration act (a government regulation that says if you work with kids, you need to be screened). The letter said that the ministry of individual members of the congregation is a "personal ministry and they are NOT representing the WT". Pretty ridiculous statement event for them. But it shows how far they will go to avoid lawsuits and government scrutiny.

I've read the first post carefully and continue to re-read it. It's VERY telling about what's going on if you analyse it. I'm going to try and break it down so that the importance isn't lost on anyone, my comments in brackets:

- Clergy/penitent privilege at risk:
"Now he mentioned the latest letter about confidentiality and said that the society is being hit left right and center with civil lawsuits and are scared as the have no way of defending them. Terms such as "agents" "representatives" or "volunteers of" are not to be used and they are to code phone calls when calling the society as the whole clergy penitent thing is going up the whazoo."

"There are also civil suits about breaches in confidentiality and they are facing real trouble there. They may have to end the paper work relating to people being sent to Bethel as there are people issuing subpoena's for their files."

[ So what I can determine from what's going on here is that Elders and/or the WT is getting lawsuits from people regarding breach of confidentiality. In a regular "church setting" a minister will privately counsel a churchgoer if they have a personal issue. That communication is privileged under law. What is NOT considered privileged is THREE church elders, at least one more(COBE), and then permanent paper records sent off the the branch, as well as possible phone consults with the Legal dept. or even the CO/DO. They have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to legally defend this and they know it, thus the statement that "they have no way of defending them". No regarding the last paragraph quoted above, it seems it should read that they may have to END THE PAPER trail of people's records being sent to Bethel. This means ALL liability for things like keeping track of child molesters would be SQUARELY on the shoulders of local Elders. How's that for being hung out to dry? Will local congregations be forced to PAY out of their coffers for background checks on appointed men once the WT cuts the paper trail?]

- Bethelite suing

"Apparently, they are being sued by a sister in bethel who slipped and fell and injured her back seriously while in service and who asked the society to foot the bill. They refused stating the she is a "volunteer" and they have no responsibility for her period. The case is heading to court, when and where I do not know but they will not budge."

[ So here we have something that they have traditionally not given a crap about people for in the past. If a Bethelite got hurt or developed a medical problem, unless you were well liked or they wanted you around for some reason, your ass was sent home. Here you have someone suing them for needed medical coverage that is totally dependent on the WT for everything and they signed their lives away to live in a religious order and they are claiming that they aren't responsible. I think courts and juries will disagree. ]

So big changes afoot. I predict these lawsuits will have wide ramifications in the near future.? No wonder they are selling off assets left and right.

Yan Bibiyan

What tickles me the most is that some Bethel bozo is reading all this for sure and there isn't a damn thing they can do!

Ye, bid fat middle finger to you, a$$holes.

Actually, if you need someone to blame, maybe give Al Gore a call for inventing the Internet....

DT

I think a useful form of protest for some would be to go out in service (perhaps to please family members) but refuse to report time. It would be interesting to document any attempts to get a person to report time as this could be relevant to lawsuits concerning liability for the preaching work.

Someone who is pressured by family to go preaching might at least be able to refuse to meet for formal meetings for service, citing the principle that this is supposed to be a personal ministry.

Someone who handles the time reports could stop calling people asking them to report their time and only handle reports made voluntarily. If questioned, he could cite Biblical principles or the idea that this could result in legal liability for him.

If the Watchtower Society loses the ability to collect time reports and hold formal meetings for field service, then they would lose major forms of control. People could take time off from the ministry without consequences. Any recruitment efforts would probably shrink to a small fraction of what happens today. Given their high turnover rate, they would face a terrifying decline, possibly forcing them to change their disfellowshipping policy. Even then, the decline from people leaving voluntarily would be substantial.

Lozhasleft

Thanks Baltar for the clarification, I too think this is a very significant thread. It seems their circular deflections are coming back to bite them on the proverbial, and not before time.

As an aside ...I remember a sister tripping on unsealed carpet after a refurbishment of a KH hurting herself badly. There were questions about her claiming on the insurance. The elders panicked. But surely, some of us said, we are covered by insurance here for accidents etc? Oh yes they said but the WTBS insures us and we wouldn't want to claim against them now would we?

Confused?

Yes we were.

Loz x

watson

I think a lot of us have felt for some time that one of the next big changes would be to discontinue reporting field service time. Might be a simple way to minimize some of the legal issues facing the leadership.

Londo111

I am curious about liability in regard to the local needs which is sometimes used for reproof, usually in response to a judicial action or marking. True…the person's name is never mentioned. But people simply can think back to who was announced, or if they work with the pioneers, they can get the person's name from the rumor mill.

cheerios

it seems with all the empasis on anti-bullying, the craptower should be a little worried, as their star chamber tactics and shunning and the gossip-mill could be construed as just that .. bullying.

Pistoff

I have 2 things.

Confidentiality does NOT exist for an elder. They are not allowed to keep something to themselves, even if they tell you they will.

I found out the hard way; I approached an elder about another elder who knew his son had beaten his wife, and the two of them ran her out of town.

I asked for confidentiality before I brought this to elder G; he said absolutely.

I tell him what I know.

Not 30 minutes later the CO calls me, says it is being handled (it wasn't) and to leave it be.

I call the elder back and ask, what about the confidentiality you promised? He said, sorry, he had to tell the CO.

I never, ever brought any matter I cared about to an elder again. When my son got into trouble, I kept the elders as far away from him as I could.

So no matter what they say, there is NO confidentiality.

BTW, every time I met with elders after that I recorded the meetings with a digital device.

Second; when I was on the building committee, I campaigned to use a local insurance company. The brothers overrode me, saying that the Society wrote insurance. I knew that they don't pay out, or browbeat the locals to not file a claim, and said so. My position was that when you have insurance, sooner or later you NEED a pay out.

I was overruled.

Yan Bibiyan

....I was overruled.

Pistoff, you must have had the wrong heart condition.

That was not overruling, it was a loving provision from Jehovah to protect you from mixing with the World.

Jeffro

Elders breach clergy-penitent privilege when they report the penitent's comments to WT headquarters.

No answer to this one!

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