by cantleave 834 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Sab - Prophet would imply something supernatural. There is nothing supernatural in what I've said. As a teenager, I watched the fall of communism, and read a great deal about it, as it was a fascinating subject for me. The cracks in communism's foundations, can all be traced back to suppression of freedom. Whether it was speech/press, economics, religion etc.
A prophet is one who knows the future. Communism hasn't fell yet. Do you think freedom will overtake China and Cuba? If so, how?
-Sab
I don't know the future. If history is any indicaton of the past, then one can make an educated guess that communism will not hold out in China either.
In many ways it already hasn't, as they've been forced to adopt many principlals of free market economics since the 90s to give their people incentive and to provide for their population. Now you are seeing many Chinese enjoying the things that a measure of freedom has afforded them, and the communist ideals that have ruled China are eroding before our eyes. It's interesting though how much slower the process is with China than it was with Russia though.
I don't know the future. If history is any indicaton of the past, then one can make an educated guess that communism will not hold out in China either.
China uses capitalism to their own ends, do you really think China will ever have a free market? Video game companies sometimes are required to have two versions of their games because the Chinese control the content of the games that are available to their public and will not allow it unless changes are made. They heavily censor the internet. Cuba just recently started allowing their citizens to debate baseball in the streets. Utilitarian government doesn't just "fall to freedom", it takes organization, blood sweat and tears. How do you think freedom will come to China and Cuba? Through capitalism?
-Sab
No, I think it will take a combination of things including blood as you stated. The Chinese government was smart by allowing capitalism though; it has served as a pressure valve to relieve some of the peoples anger, but it will not hold out forever. Capitalism and the taste of freedom that it's bringing may be the spark that ignites the powder keg there. Incidents like Tiananmen Square, and this latest Chen Guangcheng seeking U.S. assylum case show that people are not happy with that system of government.
When it comes to the problem of suffering and the existence of evil, at least a Theist can give some answer,
Just because you can fabricate an answer it doesn't mean there is any value to it. Until the scientific discoveries of Louis Pasteur and Joseph Lister people thought they had answers to to why disease and pestilence occur. Those answers were based on superstition and ignorance. Much like the answers of the theists.
but an Atheist can only give an answer such as:"In a world where there is no God what do you expect?", "That is just the way it is", "Too bad", "That's just your bad luck" or "That's your problem".
Where the hell do you get this from? As an Atheist I have never argued anything like this, and I have never heard any other non-believer express a world view anything like that. I certainly don't believe the absence of god is the cause of suffering. In fact the creation of god and the divisions caused by the god construct have been more responsible for suffering than a lack of belief.
Fatalism is fine in theory,
What has fatalism got to do with non belief in god?
but in a suffering world the most atheism can offer to those who are being hurt is Bertrand Russell's "unyielding despair". (Blanchard, Does God believe in Atheists?, p551).
Absolute rubbish! Take the definition of the Secular Humanist ....
...are atheists and agnostics who make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values. We take responsibility for our actions and base our ethics on the goals of human welfare, happiness and fulfilment. We seek to make the best of the one life we have by creating meaning and purpose for ourselves, individually and together.
There is no reason to anything, nor is there any justice; there is no God who is wise and loving and who has a plan; your suffering is meaningless, and you just have to get on with it. If you can't, then its just too bad.
Again from the British Humanist society....
...is the national charity working on behalf of non-religious people who seek to live ethical and fulfilling lives on the basis of reason and humanity. We promote Humanism, support and represent the non-religious, and promote a secular state and equal treatment in law and policy of everyone, regardless of religion or belief.
This means we are not waiting for a magic man to step in and make our lives better, we are taking postive steps to make things better for everyone.
What atheists reject is that belief in atheism is itself evil, even the greatest evil, because it opens the door to all other evils.
I certainly do not see non-believers practising evil......I see them making real progress to create fairer societies, entertaining us, leading the field in scientific discovery and providing the world with great art and literature.
This can be best illustrated by remembering the testimony of Richard Wurmbrand beingtortured and witnessing the torture of others in an Atheist prison in Romania:-
This certainly not anything like a "best" illustration for anything.
"What the communists have done to Christains surpasses... human understanding," wrote Wurmbrand. "I have seen communists whose faces while torturing believers shone with rapturous joy. They cried out while torturing the Christians, "We are the devil!" He called communism "a force of evil" that could only be countered by a greater spiritual force, "the Spirit of God." He added: The communist torturers often [told me], "There is no god, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish." I heard one torturer say, "I thank God in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart." www.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/features/war_on_religion?page=2
So some anonymous communist, does some bad shit....... How does that reflect the attitudes of non-believers generally?
The Roman Catholic Inquisition also indulged in torture, usually of Protestant believers. They also had no real faith in the God of the Bible, or love for Christ. Who can say they were really putting into practice the commands of Scripture or obeying the will of Christ? They were torturing Protestant believers because the Protestants were saying the Roman Catholic religion was not in accordance with Scripture.
But they still did it in god's name. They didn't declare themselves non-believers. Like the communust mentioned above, some Christians did bad shit too.
this 'evil' thing is actually quite interesting in itself...I have just been looking at some definitions of evil...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil
And I have to say it is hard to believe evil itself is a real concept. It seems to me that the definition of it depends on what you believe in the first place. This would explain why some think it is not evil to fight wars in the name of God...and some are non violent. It depends on how you see it.
Personally, I prefer this reasoning...
The primal duality in Buddhism is between suffering and enlightenment, so the good vs. evil splitting has no direct analogue in it. One may infer however from the general teachings of the Buddha that the catalogued causes of suffering are what correspond in this belief system to "evil". [ 9 ] [ 10 ]
Practically this can refer to 1) the three selfish emotions—desire, hate and delusion; and 2) to their expression in physical and verbal actions. See "ten unvirtuous actions in Buddhism". Specifically, "evil" means whatever harms or obstructs the causes for happiness in this life, a better rebirth, liberation from samsara, and the true and complete enlightenment of a buddha (samyaksambodhi). Ignorance is defined as the root of all evil.
I see knowlege as rebirth in a way....but not due to any god...due to understanding. A rebirth of the mind.
What I found particularly interesting was that Islam has a very different slant on what evil is...
There is no concept of absolute evil in Islam, as a fundamental universal principle that is independent from and equal with good in a dualistic sense. Within Islam, it is considered essential to believe that all comes from Allah, whether it is perceived as good or bad by individuals; and that what the things that are perceived as "evil" or "bad" are either natural events(natural disasters or illnesses) or caused by humanity's free will to disobey Allah's orders.
LOL...it would appear that Allah may be the root cause of Evil.
A fundamental question is whether there is a universal, transcendent definition of evil, or whether evil is determined by one's social or cultural background.
Come on peope, just a few more posts to go, and we can get this thread to 666 posts!
Satinka, I loved the "Dark Matter" video of "Job"...!! On page 1...
Ironically, that attitude that only "BAD" things happen to "BAD" people, was an almost universal belief, back in the Bronze Age...
In fact, once I learned of that fact, my mind immediately snapped to the tales of the "Great Flood", the "destruction" of "Sodom & Gomorrah", the "conquest" of the Canaanite cities, and other supposed situations in the bible in which supposedly "evil" people got what they "deserved"...
It seems that such tales actually went more like this - a natural disaster occurs, and after the dust clears the surrounding primitive, ignorant, superstitious peoples view the unfortunate occurance as a "Judgement From 'gawd'" upon the victims, who are THEN viewed as being "evil" - er, "eeeeeeeeeeeee-vil", "wicked", "demonized", and so on...
Sound familiar????
Zid
That's right zid...they deserved it!....they were eeeeevvviilllll
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder....it would appear that evil is too...
Interesting points, given that, I think "actions and consequences", is a much more useful expression than eeeevillle, in a secular society.
