Is this thread a pity party now?
-Sab
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave 834 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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sabastious
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sabastious
Plus she was specific at the beginning of her thread that she wanted no believer to be mocked or anything for sharing what she was asking to hear.
Well that's just people obeying the rules set by the original post and a testament to the management skills of Still Thinking. For the most part this topic is going to have strong emotions and things are going to be said. That's what apologies are for which mine wasn't accepted for some reason regarding NC. She still thinks I think she's evil I believe.
-Sab
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xchange
Sab - "Atheism is a personal decision and life philosophy..."
Actually, atheism is just a non-belief in a divine super-being as a result of insufficient evidence. No more, no less. Atheism does not dictate a philosophy. It is not JUST a personal decision.
Just wanted to clear that up. Carry on.
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Andrew Sh
Well, I hope we have exhausted our thoughts on what Einstein believed: brilliant scientist..... (but its getting a bit difficult for me to escape thinking he was all over the place when it came to talking about god/God).
Who cares what he thought anyway concerning these things? :- there's nothing special about his theories, how you view his religious opinions depends on how close you are to his views, and whether you are approaching his views or moving further away. Its all relative: and, when it comes to God, reality is simply not as straightforward as it at first appears. In summary, it seems Einstein thought he had seen the light, and even though he thought he was always consistent, it seems the light wasn't always constant.
Whew. Now we have summed up Einstein, may I move on to greater things?
When it comes to thinking about the character and nature of God are we in a good position to debate? I think there is good reason to at least proceed with real caution:-
1. We are finite creatures, and we are debating about the Infinite. Surely, this is good reason to be cautious. That the Bible says God is All Powerful I do not dispute for a moment. That the Bible says God is a loving God, even "God is love" I again would not deny at all. But then to blame God for all the evil in the world for whatever reason, is this to stay near to what the Bible says?
2. I believe my human abilities are the consequence of the human creature being created in the image and likeness of God. What of the Atheist? If there is no God, then I suppose you believe that everything is the result of blind chance. Everything must have happened by chance, with the blind chance forces of evolution. If everything is the result of chance then you must admit that you believe that you yourself are the result of chance too. Not only that, but also, the Atheist must believe that his/her powers of reason and ability to use logic are also the result of blind evolution and chance.
Now, perhaps one of you Atheists can answer me this: if you agree that your powers to be rational are the result of chance, then on what basis do you trust them? How do you know you can depend on or trust your powers of rationality? Surely you cannot implicitly trust them!
3. I believe that we all are finite creatures, created in the image of God. But I also believe that I am a fallen, sinful creature. This fallen state means that every aspect of my being has been affected, including my powers of rationality. So I have to admit, not only should the Atheist be cautious when it comes to considering the things of God, but I also need to be cautious. I am a sinner, my powers of logic have, in part at least, become corrupted. I believe that of Theists and Atheists alike.
4. There is another problem: Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the Father except by me." John 14:6. I take it that this means that we cannot come to the Father by any other religion. But surely it also means we cannot come to God the Father by our powers of rationality, by our powers of logic, or by attempts at rational debate. We cannot understand the character of God by thinking about the world and concluding He is bad or good. We can only come to understand much about God by the teachings and person of Christ in the Bible. (There are a few things we should be able to see from the created world, according to the Bible (Romans 1:18-22,and onwards), but the full extent of God's goodness we cannot see from the created world.)
I expect some of you can pick holes in the above but I shall move on:- Is God some evil monster? that is my next question, and I shall point out some Scriptures which need to be included in any discussion.
Luke 19:41-44 - which starts "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, saying, If thou hadst known,even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes", etc.
Here Our Lord reaches the brow of a hill and suddenly Jerusalem is displayed before Him, and He weeps because he knows the judgment, the pain, and the suffering that is coming upon them because of their rejection of Him. But let me just quote from J.C. Ryle:-
"We learn, firstly, from these verses, how great is the tenderness and compassion of Christ towards sinners. We are told when he came near the city for the last time "He beheld the city and wept over it." He knew well the character of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Their cruelty, their self-righteousness, their stubbornness, their obstinate prejudice against the truth, their pride of heart were not hidden from Him. He knew well what they were going to do to Himself within a very few days. His unjust judgment, His delivery to the Gentiles, His sufferings, His crucifixion, were all spread out distinctly before His mind's eye. And yet, knowing all this, our Lord pitied Jerusalem! "He beheld the city and wept over it!"
We err (mistake) greatly if we suppose that Christ cares for none but His own believing people. He cares for all. His heart is wide enough to take an interest in all mankind, His compassion extends to every man, woman, and child on earth. He has a love of general pity for the man who is going on still in wickedness, as well as a love of special affection for the sheep who hear His voice and follow Him. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hardened sinners are fond of making excuses for their conduct: but they will never be able to say that Christ was not merciful, and was not ready to save." There is more I could quote and more that could be said: but essentially, Christ cares, and God cares about the wicked, He wept. He knew what would happen to them, how they would suffer and it moved Him deeply.
This needs to be fitted into your understanding of the nature and character of God.
Ezekiel 33:11 - "As I live, saith the LORD GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked: but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
Here God pleads with all who have not yet turned back to Him in repentance and faith. "Turn ye, turn ye" is a cry from the heart of God to sinners.
God says it under oath "as I live", He takes no pleasure in the eternal death, the eternal punishment, of the wicked.
Here is a promise that if we will just turn back He will pardon and give us life. No need to repair all the things broken, no need to make good all that was done bad, no need to find all the resources to make up for all the faults, just turn back and live. Surely the Gospel itself is evidence enough that God loves sinners: He doesn't require we pay for our salvation, just turn. And He pleads for our turning, He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Romans 5:8 - "But God commends His love towards us in this: while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
God didn't start loving us after we turned to Him, but beforehand. He made the first move, not us. "We love Him because He first loved us" 1 John 4:19.
Romans 9:1-4 - "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost. That I have great heaviness and continued sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites;"... etc
Here is the Apostle Paul, writing about the Jews who have rejected Christ, and who have tried to kill him on numerous occasions, always trying to catch up with him on his missionary journeys so they can stir up a crowd, or whatever to try to get him killed. Here is Paul telling us his heart towards these enemies of himself, the gospel and of Christ. "I could wish that I myself were accursed". I could wish that I would suffer that they might be saved. I could wish that I might be given eternal punishment in hell that they might escape and be saved and spend eternity in heaven. And because this is rather difficult to believe, maybe, he says it very emphatically: "I say the truth, I lie not, my conscience also..." etc.
Here is the heart that is filled with the Holy Spirit of God, showing the heart of God to all. This is the tender mercy of God. This is the tenderness and zeal to which every Christian should aim, this is the fullness of the Spirit which is possible, though rare, for sinners. Christ's example demonstrates perfection in the God Man; but we know we cannot match Him because He is God as well as man; but Paul shows us what God can do with a sinner prepared to follow Him, Paul shows the heights of love that can rest in the heart of a sanctified sinner; it is the deep self-sacrificing love of God for the unrepentant, for sinners. Oh, the pathos, the touchingly pathetic heart of Paul, and of Christ. This passage of Scripture should move you, it should tempt at least a tear from you. It got them from me this morning.
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." So how can it be said God doesn't care for the world? Only by those who rely on that logic of which has already been descredited by Him who said "No man cometh to the Father but by me".
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NewChapter
Just about everything said above, except the stuff about Einstein, has no impact on an atheist. We can question the god you created, because we see no evidence for that god. We can criticize that god, because it is our criticisms that make it's existence less likely. It is a god that doesn't make sense. It is a very human god with limited abilities and sometimes cruel agendas.
You can only close down debate by trying to convice us that we are not in a position to question the notion because we are mere humans. But that won't work with us, because we reject such an idea. Quoting all the scriptures in the world will not change that, because the bible holds no authority for us. We don't hold to the notion that we are sinners in need of a redeemer, so Jesus's words don't really affect us.
When we focus on the genocide, rape, dead children, stonings etc we are told by believers that this is wrong, and we should focus on the love and generosity. Well maybe it is the believers who are focusing on the wrong things! We are just as correct as the warm and fuzzy christians who edit out all the uncomfortable stuff. That is the bible. You pick and choose the parts you would like to emphasize, and criticize others for choosing different parts. Now an all powerful god really could have protected his reputation and prevented all this nonsense from being ascribed to him, but he did not. Either he is not all powerful, or he not all loving, or he is just having fun and playing a chess game to see who will crack the code, or he is a creation of humans who really did believe these things in the time and culture in which they wrote such nonsense. I'm going with the last option.
So let's say that there is justification for this god not intervening in evil. Is there justification for leaving believers confused, working with conflicting messages, and absolutely no way to clear things up? Would THAT be too much power? A clear message that modern people could understand and then choose to follow or not? At least it would be fair. No, instead believers cling to scripture written by people that lived in a time and place we can never fully understand. They are left on their own to pick and choose the relevant parts. And if someone chooses genocide as relevant, and another person chooses forgiveness as relevant, then they are both fully supported by the bible. And they are both condemned by the bible. It just depends on what scriptures you use. Flaky book. That's what this god has given----a flaky book. Which makes it all the more unlikely, and weighs heavily on the atheist's idea that this was always just a human attempt to explain the world and deal with our fears.
We could write a much better bible today! We actually have some very good answers to the questions raised. We could give a better story about our beginnings, disease, the universe. It could be more in line with current cultures and norms. But it would still just be a human creation, and in 2000 years would be just as irrelevant as the bible is today. Perhaps this god should consider a second edition.
NC
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tec
Well maybe it is the believers who are focusing on the wrong things! We are just as correct as the warm and fuzzy christians who edit out all the uncomfortable stuff. That is the bible. You pick and choose the parts you would like to emphasize, and criticize others for
choosing different parts.
See, the faith of a Christian should not be in the bible.
The faith of a Christian is in Christ.
So that even IN the bible, His words take precedence over any other. Because HE is the one we follow. Which is why there is no point in writing a better bible... or rewriting this bible... because the bible is not salvation. The bible did not give its life; nor can it give life. It is an inanimate object.
Christ is real. He is alive. He is spirit.
Core teachings of Christ on how to live that most christians are going to agree upon (though many add variations beyond this): Faith, forgiveness, mercy, love.
The Spirit of Christ does not give conflicting messages... some people simply prefer to listen to a different spirit. One of intolerance, or fear, or hatred, or anger. Then those people might call themselves Christians (like Hitler for an e x treme e x ample) and say that Christ wants all the acts of intolerance, fear, hatred or anger that they show, because 'insert reason here'... so that they feel justified and can continue to do what they want to do.
But if someone is listening to the Spirit of Christ, then they will not listen to the spirit of something else, and they will recognize those who are listening to a different spirit, as being in conflict with the spirit of Christ.
Peace,
tammy
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NewChapter
some people simply prefer to listen to a different spirit
Perhaps they are listening with a different spirit, but they are listening to the same message. And that is the point. YOU say they are taking in the wrong details, but they say YOU are. And you are both right. And you are both wrong. Just depends on the pieces you pick at.
NC
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cantleave
See, the faith of a Christian should not be in the bible. The faith of a Christian is in Christ.
I still don't understand this, as the Bible is the only book that talks about Christ as god / godlike! Without the bible stories of Christ he would never have had a platform.
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NewChapter
It's a mystery cantleave. I've yet to crack it. The answers to this question always strike me as, well, completely subjective and totally up to personal choice. It's like liquid.
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tec
I still don't understand this, as the Bible is the only book that talks about Christ as god / godlike! Without the bible stories of Christ he would never have had a platform.
Well, his ex istence gave him the platform to begin with. The accounts and witnesses who came after are based on that. These many accounts are the tangible things we have that have passed down. So it is a good start to know about Him through them, and to get to know Him, in part, through His teachings. But to actually know Him, one must go TO Him. And since HE is the image of God (not the bible) - then it is Him we should look at to see God (whether you can do that in spirit, or whether you look first at the accounts about Him that just happen to have been placed in the bible as well)The bible is not one book. Nor do any books within it (or the whole) have to be dismissed just because it is not viewed as inspired or inerrant. The bible is a tool... it does help us have an idea of the views of the people who wrote it; and the witnesses that they gave about events or about Christ and His life.
People believed in God long before there was ever a bible. People believed in Christ long before there was ever an NT as well. Through what others witnessed, and then through what they confirmed and felt in themselves as well.
Peace,
tammy