If you don't know what's wrong it can't be fixed
by N.drew 220 Replies latest watchtower bible
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NewChapter
Ah the cynical card. Looking for the truth of the matter is cynical if I don't believe my 2 neighbors really saw a fairy. So Sab, are you saying that if 2 people come to you and say they saw fairies, which they are unable to show you, that you would be cynical not to believe? Would you believe? Would you draw a line? Do you ever need something more concrete? Or are you willing to accept it because they say so? If so, then I guess that could make you gullible.
One time I saw little devils dancing in front of my TV with pitchforks. I really saw them, they were marching in an oblong circle. They were there, because I saw them. Do you believe me? Do I need another witness? Do you draw a line?
Another time, I saw flames on my wall. Flashing red and orange. They were there! I saw them. Do you believe me?
So I used to (and sometimes still do) float off of my bed and hover over it. then my body would rock back and forth. I know this. I felt it. That makes it real. It will likely happen again, as it is recurring.
Now what would a spiritual person say to all of that?
I'll tell you what science has told me. I have sleep paralysis. But if a neighbor came to me with such experiences, I suppose I would be cynical to question the validity of such. And yet, in the past, it was pretty much accepted that the person was visited by demons or spirits. Or in modern day, they were even abducted by aliens----it's that floaty, flighy factor coupled with the humanoid type faces and bright lights that are common experiences.
So fairies? I'd be asking about drugs, mental illness, sleep, wishful thinking and outright trickery. I'm a cynic.
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sabastious
In the OP (EDIT) second post in this thread, NDrew uses the Bible to call unbelievers cowards. How about that, Sab? Even if you remove NDrew from the equation, that verse could be considered bullying to an unbeliever. Do you take issue with that as well?
Well, I don't subscribe to the idea that unbelievers are cowards. I do believe some are and it is tied to their unbelieving stance, but only because they don't back it up and use it as a crutch, much like noodly believers use the Bible. N Drew is not a noodly believer, not by any stretch of the imagination. As to the Bible calling unbelievers cowards, I think intelligent folk such as yourself have the ability to look past the prejudice of an ancient book. I like the way Dan Savage puts it, it's just bullsh*t just like the Bible's view on slavery. John Shelby Spong wrote a book called Sins of Scripture. The Bible is a spiritual book of law and human principle of which most of it will never go out of style.
-Sab
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N.drew
are you saying that if 2 people come to you and say they saw fairies, which they are unable to show you, that you would be cynical not to believe? Would you believe?
Sab's illustration DOES NOT say the town's people should believe him. He said if they are no longer there to study does it make them UNREAL to the two observers.
Looking for the truth of the matter is cynical if I don't believe my 2 neighbors really saw a fairy.
If someone does not accept the witness of someone who has "seen" Christ it just means he is not called or chosen or faithful. He must be all three.
Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
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SweetBabyCheezits
Sab: With all due respect you are so wrong. If my friend and I see a fairy and then go back to our town and bring others back to the spot and the fairy isn't there that doesn't mean fairies don't exist or that I had a mental episode.
If my friend and I thought we saw what appeared to be a fairy-like apparition, I'd feel compelled to tell others about it but I'd be reluctant to state that I saw a fairy. To be quick to label what you saw as a fairy, with absolutely no other verification than sight would be, as I stated earlier, premature.
When we saw the fairy the scientific method very well could have been used to prove/disprove my experience, but the fairy is intelligent and may resist.
As is typical of mythical fairytale creatures... Nonetheless, we're talking about your memory of a perception that you shared with a friend. An anecdote. (EDIT) Video below.
Yet, since I cannot get my fairy to come back, because I have not studied them, I am dead in the water with the scientific method even though I DID see the fairy and confirmed it with a second eye witness.
You and SBC's "feelings" only argument is problematic. What I am hearing is that if an unexplained experience cannot be tested it should be considered to not have happened.
Not at all. If an unexplained experience cannot be tested it should simply be considered unexplained. But when you place that "fairy" label on it, what you are saying is you can explain it, even though your only testimony was visual and temporary. Even then, "it's magic" is not an explanation. It's just a new label that shrouds the real label in mystery.
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sabastious
Ah the cynical card. Looking for the truth of the matter is cynical if I don't believe my 2 neighbors really saw a fairy. So Sab, are you saying that if 2 people come to you and say they saw fairies, which they are unable to show you, that you would be cynical not to believe? Would you believe? Would you draw a line? Do you ever need something more concrete? Or are you willing to accept it because they say so? If so, then I guess that could make you gullible.
Of course I would believe them, there would be no reason not to because they simply stated an experience. It is cynical to default to non belief of a personal experience. If someone came up to me and said that they knew fairies existed because someone else saw fairies then I would probably not believe them.
One time I saw little devils dancing in front of my TV with pitchforks. I really saw them, they were marching in an oblong circle. They were there, because I saw them. Do you believe me? Do I need another witness? Do you draw a line?
A single person's experience can be easily explained by hallucination which the experiencer should be aware of and not take offense to skepticism or even cynicism. But if there are two people then it changes a lot for me. However, I still wouldn't default to hallucination just because, but I would tread carefully because of how many hoaxes exist and have existed.
I'll tell you what science has told me. I have sleep paralysis. But if a neighbor came to me with such experiences, I suppose I would be cynical to question the validity of such. And yet, in the past, it was pretty much accepted that the person was visited by demons or spirits. Or in modern day, they were even abducted by aliens----it's that floaty, flighy factor coupled with the humanoid type faces and bright lights that are common experiences.
Your experience is much different than the fairy example because it can be perfectly explained by a known scientific phenomenon. By the way I'm sorry you have sleep paralysis, that is a hardcore disorder, my little brother has it.
So fairies? I'd be asking about drugs, mental illness, sleep, wishful thinking and outright trickery. I'm a cynic.
What if they passed all your tests? The fairy example was to point out that there are human experiences that are confirmed by eye witnesses at the time of the experience. Even within the scientific method such a fact has scientific weight as well as in the courtroom. When two people say they saw the same thing, such as a murder, questioners can accurately determine if they are lying or not based on the science of psychology and other factors. More than one person is greater than one person.
-Sab
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NewChapter
The Bible is a spiritual book of law and human principle of which most of it will never go out of style.
Well I don't know about principles not going out of style. Savage pretty much named a significant list of such. But let me ask you this. How do you decide? What criteria do YOU use to decide what parts are bullshit and what parts are valid? Do you base it on your own personal feelings? People used to really believe it was right and just to stone adulterers. They did, or they wouldn't have done it. THAT has gone out of style. Whose to say that more won't go by the wayside? We've already thrown the prohibitions against divorce to the garbage dump. Hopefully we'll be trashing the Bible's view of homosexuality soon. So if the book is so full of disposable values, how do YOU decide which are useful forever? And if you are only choosing what is useful for this time and place, that's what we all do. It's all relative. We don't even need a book or the spiritual to make those decisions.
I'd say a book that has been proven to be 80% wrong is not worth much. If I give you a bucket of facts and tell you that only 20% are accurate, then what use is that bucket of facts? It's like giving nothing at all and leaving you on your own to determine. Which is where I am. I accept that we must, as individuals and as a society, determine on our own what is acceptable for us---now----here.
NC
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Lozhasleft
So why then are 'unexplained' experiences provoking such cynicism which produces anger and ridicule?
Loz x
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N.drew
NDrew uses the Bible to call unbelievers cowards
No, I believe a believer can be cowardly. So I guess I must disagree. A coward who is a believer who will not see the truth about his standing with Jah will NOT see the Kingdom of God. That's not the same as saying unbelievers are cowards.
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
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sabastious
If my friend and I thought we saw what appeared to be a fairy-like apparition, I'd feel compelled to tell others about it but I'd be reluctant to state that I saw a fairy. To be quick to label what you saw as a fairy, with absolutely no other verification than sight would be, as I stated earlier, premature.
Sight is enough for such a conclusion. Fairies are humanoids that can fly with wings. A "flying human" is about as fanciful as a fairy, but I see your point.
-Sab