Well there's just an itty bitty problem here.. Belief is often a matter of preference, the same as a person's opinion is. So it seems to me the same question applies to someone's opinion, can you prove it? What do you actually think can be proven anyways? When you follow the logic back to the basics don't you have to make some kind of assumptions to start with? If you really want to get down to it most people have some kind of beliefs that way - I don't think it's all that meaningful to distinguish between religious and non-religious ones. Maybe we can make the distinction between people who acknowledge this and people who don't, though. After all, if we're going to talk about mental illness a person deluding themselves would qualify, no matter what it is. More than one religious text (including the bible if I'm not mistaken) says something to the effect of if you think you know something when you really don't, you're deceiving yourself. Of course even though the logic is sound, many of us might have issues with the bible in particular and religious sources in general, just don't like the source. We wouldn't want to exacerbate that now.. Say, might that be mental illness?
Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill
by gravedancer 70 Replies latest jw friends
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gravedancer
When someone hears voices in their head and they listen to the voices is that person mentally ill?
When someone has an imaginary friend and the talk to the imaginary person, are they are mentally ill?
When someone lives their whole life and bases all their decisions and actions on what they think ("believe") some God tried to tell them (in most cases based on some ancient book), is that person mentall ill?
How are the 3 people different? Which one of them has a better basis for their actions?
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gravedancer
A Rating System for Religious Fundamentalism
In response to the growing number of religious zealots and other general lunatics following fictitious deities around, we have compiled the following test in order to empirically measure the sanity of religious fanatics. This is similar to the Close Encounters test, and uses an identical table for calculating scores.
Scoring: Total up all points based on the table below. Count each infraction separately. Points Infraction
1 - Per valid argument that is not also sound.
1 - Per word in all capital letters, excluding those who type in all caps and people with defective keyboards.
1 - Being a member of a religious order that is generally agreed upon to be mentally out to lunch. Includes any order or sect not recognized as a religion. Double this for Church of Satan members. Triple this for Hare Krishnas.
2 - Confusing logical reasoning with emotional appeals.
2 - Claim that everyone believes in some form of God.
2 - Logical fallacy or inconsistency: Q doesn't necessarily follow P.
2 - Vague, unspecific reference to a person, place, or thing that supports their religious beliefs. Do not cite twice for being an emotional appeal.
2 - Per use of hearsay evidence. Do not cite twice if this involves divine revelations.
3 - Use of circular logic. Do not also count as a logical fallacy or inconsistency.
3 - Per "sign" or miracle that can clearly be explained through secular means. Add one if person already knows the secular explanation(s).
3 - Per claim that clearly violates laws of physics. Triple this if the fundie claims that it is physics, and not his/her story, that is fundamentally flawed. Add six to this total if the fundamentalist has had formal education in physics.
3 - Per claim that a widely accepted scientific procedure is flawed, without good evidence. Includes attacks on Carbon Dating.
3 - Claiming the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution, or similar misuse of the laws of Physics. Also add three for each misuse of laws or theories pertaining to Chemistry, Biology, or any other scientific field.
3 - Claiming non-existant gaps in the fossil record disprove evolution. Do not count this if the gaps cited are real or reasonably accurate. Add five if Piltdown Man or another forged hominid is mentioned.
4 - Citing education or job held as evidence for sanity. Double this if zealot is a clergyman, Professor of religious studies, or trucker.
4 - Per claim that heavy metal (or any other class of music) is the work of Satan. Count once per cited musical category.
4 - Reversing societal definitions of good and evil to justify one's own stupid belief system. If you aren't sure, consult a dictionary.
4 - Defending clearly evil actions of a deity or his chosen people; claiming they were good or morally right. Include any defenses of murder, especially divine murders in the Old Testament.
4 - Per otherwise unspecified paranormal experience. Include out-of-body experiences and visions of heaven after being hit by lightning. Double this if the fundie has not actually been struck by lightning.
5 - Per claim that God revealed Himself (or Herself) to the person in question. Add five if the fundie claims that God can reveal Himself to you, as well, if only you believe/look for a sign. Add one if the revelation came while under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, and/or while clearly mentally ill.
5 - Millenialism; belief that the world will end before the year 2,010. Add ten if the person believes the world will end on January 1, 2000. Add ten if God told them so directly.
5 - Per claim that Dungeons and Dragons (or any other role-playing game) is Satanic or inherently evil.
6 - Citing any natural wonder as evidence for a Great Flood, esp. if it really provides evidence for the contrary. Add two if the Grand Canyon is mentioned.
7 - Claiming that the Devil (or demons) can "get into someone's head" through listening to a specific type of music, through role-playing games, or through any other type of activity.
7 - Claiming that every story in their particular canon is true to the letter.
8 - Someone claims to be a Satanist, but also claims not to worship Satan
8 - Continuing to make such claims after presentation of archaeological evidence to the contrary.
8 - Citing Velikovskian (or similar) research as "valid" evidence for God.
8 - Each claim that heaven is on a planet in another galaxy.
8 - Using one's own religious canon as evidence for their argument, as if it were an accurate historical record.
9 - Each claim that heaven is on a planet orbiting a star that clearly has no planets orbiting it. Add four if this is a binary, multiple star system, or pulsar.
10 - Citing a book one has written - or is writing - as evidence.
10 - Claiming one has actually been possessed by a demon or devil. Add two if the fundamentalist claims to have been possessed by Satan or some other supreme evil.
12 - Each claim to have seen God, Satan (or another supreme evil), Jesus (or a similar messiah), Heaven, or Hell personally.
15 - Claiming to be possessed by a demon, devil, or other supernatural being at the present time.
20 - Claiming to be an angel, demon, or devil.
40 - Claiming that one is God, Satan, or Jesus. Double this if the fundie offers to prove it.Final Score Meaning and interpretations
0 or less Sane. This person may very well have a logical, rational grip on religion, rare though it seems.
1-5 Reasonably Consistent. It is likely that the person you are evaluating has more rational beliefs than irrational ones. It is best to evaluate each belief separately in this case.
6-10 Questionable. Some of their claims could be reasonably founded, but the logic of each specific belief is largely unknown.
11-20 Borderline Fundamentalist. Accepts without question many religions beliefs; probably forces them on others. Dislikes claims that his/her religion may be wrong.
21-30 Fundamentalist. Expect unintelligible babble, idiotic defenses of ludicrous actions and events, and totally illogical claims.
31-40 Psychopath. Watch for white sheets and heavily armed pickup trucks. Tell this person to put down their Bible and get some fresh air.
41-59 Loon. You are dealing with a complete idiot. Ignore anything they say as illogical and blatantly false. Do not expect this person to ever develop an even marginally rational belief system.
60+ Stop counting at this point. Call the authorities, and report that the patient has escaped.taken from http://www.eclipse.net/~amw/silly/fund.shtml
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Mr Ben
When I was back home in The Land of The Blind, some crazy nutcase reckoned he could "see" colours & shapes & other delusional stuff. Anyway, after the eye surgery he was ok again.
Our scientists proved that the ailment was due to an unusual retinal gel that is not present in normal people. It is a pretty simple proceedure to correct, but it can scar the afflicted person psycologically for life.
Poor sods.
Dr Ben
Religion n.
An organisation designed to promote atheism. -
wonderwoman77
Ok grave, I see your point, but when I feel inner peace after meditating, to me that is proof I have gotten into connection with something spiritual, whether that is somethng inside me our outside me, it does not matter. I do have an analogy for you, just to think about...
Do you have garbage pick up? I do. I take my garbage out at night and when I wake up the next morning it is gone. I do not see my garbage man, but I believe he exists. It is about faith, maybe you do not want to or need to have faith and that is ok. But just because people do does not make them mentally ill. Plus nothing in the DSM -IV supports your belief that spiritual people are mentally ill. IF a person realizes God is a spirit and other things, there are no delusions or hallucinations....Sorry in the realm of psychology your theory does not hold true....
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wonderwoman77
Actually grave it is said that having an imaginary friend in kids is a sign of intelligence. In adults it is said to be them talking to them selves. It is only a hallucination when they see the imaginary friend. I agree with you that extremists may be on the verge of being mental ill, but those who are just seeking inner peace by getting connected with their inner spirit...that makes them mentally ill. Being spiritual does not mean you base your ideas on an ancient book, I do not, and many do not. I do not hear voices in my head. So maybe your questions are valid for some, but not for all....
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garybuss
Schizophrenics often have a psychotic break that is religious in nature, i. e. they imagine they are Jesus Christ or Moses or some character their mind is familiar with. Often, in my experience, these types cling to religion as a context in which to try to function. A rigid religion with lots of rules and enforcers seems to give the suffers a sense of comfort, a sense of safety.
In a religious group these types do stand out, but not because they are the normal type. They stand out because they are not the usual type. For people without a good life and for people who see no hope for the life they wish they had, religion seems to provide a place for them to receive hope. The benefit to them is not in receiving the dream as a reality, the benefit to them is the hope itself.
I see this working in the followers of the Watch Tower Corporations. The death of their enemies, real or imagined, the concept of an easy, every need met, paradise to live in, gives them hope. And they go on. They experience setbacks and disappointments and at times overwhelming disconfirming evidence, but they continue. The reason for many is that if they loose the hope, they are hopeless.
Hopelessness is a terrifying thought to most people sick or well. When a person thinks of leaving the high control group, their first question is, "Where will we go?".
What they are asking is, "What will be our replacement hope?".
It is too huge a step for many steeped in religious supernatural superstitions from childhood to look at rational objective reality in the hard light of day. Many begin a journey into deism and advance to skepticism and rational inquiry by stages and time.
For many, to question their hope is to question their reason for living, their will and their very life.If I am secure in my understandings, there is absolutely no reason why I need to lobby anyone else to adopt my philosophy. I only need company for my insecurities, my weaknesses and my assumptions.
Good topic. Thanks for posting it.gb
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SixofNine
appreciatively clapping at Gary Buss' post.
I'll be sharing that.
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Perry
gb wrote:
If I am secure in my understandings, there is absolutely no reason why I need to lobby anyone else to adopt my philosophy. I only need company for my insecurities, my weaknesses and my assumptions.
Excellent observation I believe to be true of any position. Will you also concede the rabid athiests are as insecure as the rabid theists? -
gravedancer
Gary,
I see it at work in people who have left too. They look around and cannot bear to live "without hope".
Hope seems to be such an important part of the psyche of people. Even if it is not well founded people will cling to it.
When people exit a cult or religion (one and the same to me) they feel a void and they have to fill it. I did that too. It especially is so damn hard when you deal with the concept of death or finality (especially of a loved one - much harder than imagining our own death). But is the urge to cling to something more important than rationality? For some it seems so. Is this a mental illness? I think its comparable to OCD or even repressive memory and has similar symptoms.