It's Back! . . . Round 2.

by ABibleStudent 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

ABibleStudent
If you are an American citizen, please visit http://wh.gov/tFK and sign the "Protect Millions of Americans from Dangerous Orgs: Modify USC Title 26 § 501 Tax Exemption Requirements" petition that I created on June 1, 2012 on the White House website. I assume that only Americans can sign this petition, but I do not know. It takes about 2 minutes to register and sign the petition. 150 signatures are needed before this petition becomes live and searchable on "We the People" webpage. 25,000 people must sign the petition before June 31, 2012 for the White House staff to review it.
If you would like to learn more about this petition, how to remain anonymous and sign the petition, and reasons to sign the petition, please visit the Facebook page for the White House petition at http://on.fb.me/wh-petition. The Facebook page contains a timeline with a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) box that is pinned to the top of the timeline, several videos about organizations that I would consider dangerous orgs, and links to other informative websites.
Hopefully, this petition is very clear that if an organization wants the privilege of being exempt from paying taxes that it must promote to its members and/or employees that they are free to believe as they want and to speak freely without fearing retribution from the organization or from other members and/or employees. If enough members, employees, former members, and/or former employees file valid complaints with the IRS, then the IRS would suspend an organization’s tax exempt status for not less than 3 years. According to IRS Publication 557 and 1828, the IRS maintains basic guidelines to determine whether an organization meets the religious purposes test of section 501(c)(3) “that the practices and rituals associated with the organization’s religious belief or creed are not illegal or contrary to clearly defined public policy”. Any law that would be inspired by this petition would only add one more requirement for tax exempt organizations to follow.
Although signing the White House petition is one step in a long process to motivate Congress to pass a bill and for the President to sign a bill into a law, much more is needed than signing the White House petition. In the coming weeks I plan to write letters to the President, senators, representatives, other organizations, and websites to promote this petition and for Congress to create a bill(s). The more Americans that write letters to the president, their senators, and their representatives about this issue: the more likely that a law will be enacted.
There are many ways that JWN members can help to collect 25,000 signatures before June 31, 2012. If you are a Facebook member, you can “Like” the Facebook page http://on.fb.me/wh-petition and the White House petition ( http://wh.gov/tFK ). You can send emails to non-JW friends and family with links to the Facebook page ( http://on.fb.me/wh-petition ) and the White House petition page ( http://wh.gov/tFK ). You can send anonymous emails to JW friends and family. If you want to forward an email to JWs (i.e., use the WTBTS’s induced fear against the WTBTS), PM me and I will be glad to send you email that you can forward to JW friends and family to “warn” them about the White House petition. You can post a comment to this thread that you signed the petition and why you signed the petition to keep this thread in the top of the active list of threads. You can post a comment to this thread that you signed the petition and why you signed the petition to keep this thread in the top of the active list of threads.
This is my second attempt to promote signing a petition to protect Americans from dangerous orgs (or cults according to Steve Hassan). I learned a lot from my first attempt, and hopefully my second attempt will be more successful. FYI, the following threads tried to promote the 1 st attempt for a White House petition:
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
kurtbethel

While I agree with dismantling dangerous organizations and entities, under American law there has always been a sort of mission creep, like the war on terrorism. This means that more and more entities get on that list, far different than the original intent of it.
ABibleStudent

Hi kurtbethel, Thank you for commenting on this thread. Do you feel that this petition is about dismantling dangerous orgs and/or that a law inspired by this petition would expand the powers of the IRS?
The IRS already has the power to promulgate regulations and to investigate tax exempt organizations. A law inspired by this petition would add one more requirement in USC Title 26 § 501 (and maybe § 170) that all tax exempt organizations must follow - not just religions - and that the IRS would use to determine whether an organization's activities were “contrary to clearly defined public policy”. This petition does not state that Congress or the IRS should dismantle dangerous orgs. This petition does state that the IRS should be able to suspend an organization's tax exempt status for at least three years if members, employees, and/or former members file valid complaints. A three year suspention will not dismantle an organization, but it will make a dangerous org think twice about not promoting freedom of religion and speech to its members and/or employees.
The Supreme Court held that the IRS does have the authority to revoke an organization's tax exempt status in BOB JONES UNIVERSITY, GOLDSBORO CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS, INC. v. UNITED STATES. 461 U.S. 574 (1983) when an organization did not comply with public policy.
Based on what James Madison wrote in Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments , James Madison might agree with the intent of this petition. James Madision worte the U.S. Constitution, the 1st draft of the Bill of Rights, and was the 4th President of the United States.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
WTWizard

We have forever--June 31 never comes. Unless the real deadline is June 30.
mynameislame

Isn't that kind of an oxymoron? How can you force someone to promote freedom of religion and speech without infringing on their right to the same freedoms? Plus the jdubs are very careful to only make "suggestions" in writing so this probalbly wouldn't affect them anyway. And a law like that would be just another law on the books that nobody could afford to enforce. I hear they are laying off tax autitors even though each auditor briings in farm more revenu than their anual salary. Who are we going to hire to enforce this law?
JeffT

mynameislame,
We've been down this road before. Abiblestudent doesn't get the issues involved, and apparently doesn't want to. ABS I'm not opposed to going after the WTBS in reasonable ways. This isn't one of those ways.
cofty

Robert, you never addressed my pragmatic objection the last time you tried this.
The GB would simply carry on as usual. They would make brief announcements as they do now to the effect that "John Doe is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses". The official line would be that how other faithful JWs should treat John Doe is entirely a matter for their bible trained conscience and nothing would change. The rank and file would continue to shun because they all suffer from an advanced case of Stockholm Syndrome. Anybody who dissents about this would quietly lose all "privileges" and if they tried to encourage others to behave similarly they would be DFd for causing divisions. This is already the official position in connection with blood transfusions.
By doing this no complaint against them could ever be proven.
My other concern is that if a religious organisation must allow their members and employees freedom of worship without fear of sanction there is nothing to stop an assistant pastor of a mega-church preaching that the bible is a work of mythology, Jesus was just a good man and conducting blessings of homosexual relationships. Equally a Mormon teacher could claim his salary while telling members that the BOM is a fraud and a Muslim Mullah could not be disciplined by his mosque for preaching that Muhammed was a pedophile.
Do you think this is practical?
Mynameislame also makes an excellent point which I would be interested to hear your answer to.
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb

Our personal liberties and freedom mean nothing; the government doesn't care unless they feel that they're losing big bucks, relinquishing power and/or are being threatened.
In other words they wanna know what's the problem, why should they care and what's in it for them if they do.
A petition needs to lay out the:
Threat: (Stealing power) Allowing high control entities who mentally, financially and physically enslave and abuse United States citizens to rule and terrorize United States Citizens usurps the rights and power of the United States government.
Problem: (Relinquishing power and losing money) The United States is thus condoning the actions of high control groups by freeing the wealth of such entities through the granting of a tax-exempt status. This tax-exempt status also undermines the United States economy by funneling billions of dollars away from infrastructure and necessary government agencies that said entities currently use for free.
Solution: (Instant gratification by asserting power while making more money) Removing the tax-exempt status and taxing such entities would be raising NEW revenue while helping solve the current revenue problems of the United States
ABibleStudent

WTWizard - We have forever--June 31 never comes. Unless the real deadline is June 30.
Hi WTWizard, Good catch! It is nice to see that you were paying attention. The petition expires on June 30, 2012.
mynameislame - Isn't that kind of an oxymoron? How can you force someone to promote freedom of religion and speech without infringing on their right to the same freedoms? Plus the jdubs are very careful to only make "suggestions" in writing so this probalbly wouldn't affect them anyway. And a law like that would be just another law on the books that nobody could afford to enforce. I hear they are laying off tax autitors even though each auditor briings in farm more revenu than their anual salary. Who are we going to hire to enforce this law?
Hi mynameislame, Do you feel that tax exemptions are a privilege or a right? I believe that tax exemptions are a privilege and so does the US government according to IRS Publications 557 and 1828, and so does the U.S. Supreme Court, which held that the IRS can revoke tax exemptions of organizations that do not follow “clearly defined public policy”. Any law that would be inspired by this law, would require that the IRS investigate complaints by members, employees, and former members when complainants were afraid to express their religious views and/or disagree with an organization’s leaders because of potential and significant reprisals (i.e., shunning and marking). I doubt that any member of an organization would file a complaint against an organization if that organization was promoting freedom of religion and speech to its members.
JeffT - mynameislame,
We've been down this road before. Abiblestudent doesn't get the issues involved, and apparently doesn't want to. ABS I'm not opposed to going after the WTBS in reasonable ways. This isn't one of those ways.
Hi JeffT, Since you have not cited any U.S. Federal or Supreme Court decision nor any published U.S. Legal opinion about the U.S. government revoking or not revoking an organization’s tax exemptions now or in the past, what issues are you referring to that you feel that I do not understand? This petition is about petitioning the Obama Administration to encourage Congress to pass a law to revise USC Title 26 § 501 to “clearly define public policy” for tax exempt organizations. I have cited BOB JONES UNIVERSITY, GOLDSBORO CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS, INC. v. UNITED STATES. 461 U.S. 574 (1983) to you and others in the past, and no one has cited another U.S. Supreme Court decision that counters it. If you are going to write that I do not understand something , at least cite what it is with an appropriate link so that people can substantiate your conclusions instead of making generalized and possibly misleading statements like a cult follower. Or, ask clarifying questions to learn more about what I am thinking and answer my clarifying questions to you.
cofty - Robert, you never addressed my pragmatic objection the last time you tried this.
The GB would simply carry on as usual. They would make brief announcements as they do now to the effect that "John Doe is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses". The official line would be that how other faithful JWs should treat John Doe is entirely a matter for their bible trained conscience and nothing would change. The rank and file would continue to shun because they all suffer from an advanced case of Stockholm Syndrome. Anybody who dissents about this would quietly lose all "privileges" and if they tried to encourage others to behave similarly they would be DFd for causing divisions. This is already the official position in connection with blood transfusions.
By doing this no complaint against them could ever be proven.
My other concern is that if a religious organisation must allow their members and employees freedom of worship without fear of sanction there is nothing to stop an assistant pastor of a mega-church preaching that the bible is a work of mythology, Jesus was just a good man and conducting blessings of homosexual relationships. Equally a Mormon teacher could claim his salary while telling members that the BOM is a fraud and a Muslim Mullah could not be disciplined by his mosque for preaching that Muhammed was a pedophile.
Do you think this is practical?
Mynameislame also makes an excellent point which I would be interested to hear your answer to.
Hi Cofty, I don’t have all the detailed and legal answers to analyze complaints and prove that the WTBTS is not promoting freedom of religion and speech. I believe that I have valid and workable general approach. Congress would have to pass a law that would authorize the IRS to promulgate regulations for investigating complaints and to suspend an organization’s tax exempt status when sufficient valid complaints are filed. The IRS would probably need to hire dangerous cult experts to promulgate appropriate regulations. A complaint would be considered valid if the complainant could prove that they were a member or employee of an organization and could prove that an organization’s actions made the complainant afraid to disagree with their organization’s leaders because of significant consequences (i.e., shunning and/or marking). According to the article Disfellowshipping and Shunning on www.jwfacts.com , complainants should be able to easily substantiate their fears, because of the WTBTS’s history. If sufficient valid complaints were filed against the WTBTS, how would the WTBTS prove that it did promote freedom of religion and speech to JWs considering the WTBTS’s history since 1955? I do understand what the WTBTS would try to do, but I feel that behavioral scientist would be able to expose the WTBTS's real motives by questioning why the WTBTS expended so much effort using behavioral, information, thought, and emotional (BITE) control techniques to control JWs.
Even if this petition does not result in a law passed by Congress, at least the debate and controversy would be as beneficial (but not as humorous) as Sparlock appearing on a Simpsons episode.
As far as your concern about what pastors and others might do, those individuals can already do what you are afraid of without a law inspired by this petition. This petition is trying to prevent organizations from using intimidation and coercion on its members. There is a significant difference between shunning someone as if they were dead and disagreeing with someone’s beliefs or opinions.
Disillusioned Lost-Lamb - Our personal liberties and freedom mean nothing; the government doesn't care unless they feel that they're losing big bucks, relinquishing power and/or are being threatened.
In other words they wanna know what's the problem, why should they care and what's in it for them if they do.
A petition needs to lay out the:
Threat: (Stealing power) Allowing high control entities who mentally, financially and physically enslave and abuse United States citizens to rule and terrorize United States Citizens usurps the rights and power of the United States government.
Problem: (Relinquishing power and losing money) The United States is thus condoning the actions of high control groups by freeing the wealth of such entities through the granting of a tax-exempt status. This tax-exempt status also undermines the United States economy by funneling billions of dollars away from infrastructure and necessary government agencies that said entities currently use for free.
Solution: (Instant gratification by asserting power while making more money) Removing the tax-exempt status and taxing such entities would be raising NEW revenue while helping solve the current revenue problems of the United States
Hi Disillusioned Lost-Lamb, I agree with your analysis about the U.S government and Americans in general. I sometimes feel that politicians and Americans do not care about dangerous orgs, because they have not been educated about the dangers. I tried to convey the problem in the title of the petition and in the Facebook page http://on.fb.me/wh-petition that I referenced in the petition. Since I do not have much quantitative evidence to write to politicians about, I was hoping that people who are knowledgeable about dangerous orgs would sign the White House petition, write the President a letter, and write letters to their senators and representatives to show politicians that this issue is important.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
JeffT

My opposition to this isn't based on supreme court decisions so I don't care what they say. I do not think you can accomplish your stated purpose - expanding religious freedom - by having the government enforce its version of proper religion through the tax code.

It's Back! . . . Round 2.

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