It's Back! . . . Round 2. (page 2)

ABibleStudent

JeffT - My opposition to this isn't based on supreme court decisions so I don't care what they say. I do not think you can accomplish your stated purpose - expanding religious freedom - by having the government enforce its version of proper religion through the tax code.

Hi JeffT, Since you do not care about Supreme Court decisions that substantiate that the IRS can revoke an organization's tax exempt status, does that mean that you have no legal reasons to object to a law that would be inspired by the White House petition?

Since the IRS would not investigate an organization until it received complaints from members, employees, and/or former membes of an organizattion in a law inspired by the White House petition, why do you feel that government would be enforcing its version of proper religion on tax exempt organizations? The White House petition only helps people of dangerous orgs to disagree with an orgs' leaders - not the government enforcing its version of religion on members.

Have you read the thread Changes in Australian legislation - likely to outlaw shunning in the future? It seems like the Aussie government has enacted a law that prevents individuals from shunning family members and friends (caveat: I have not read the law). To me the Australian law seems less workable, more expensive to enforce, and infringes on an individual's freedom of speech than a law that would be inspired by the White House petition.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

ABibleStudent

Hi Fernando, lisaBObeesa, 00DAD, Shawn10538, blindnomore, Madge,soft+gentle, Sic Semper Tyrannis, ohiocowboy, and apostatethunder, you have PMs from me.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

JeffT

Whether or not somebody makes your idea legal, I think it's WRONG.

ABibleStudent

JeffT - Whether or not somebody makes your idea legal, I think it's WRONG.

Hi JeffT, There is nothing wrong to say that you feel that the White House petition is wrong. No one will DF or DA you on JWN for expressing your opinion. I just don't like it when people write that it is unconstitutional or that it will not work without substantiating their point of view. I will agree to disagree with you and continue to promote the White House petition.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

ABibleStudent

Hi garbonzo, okage, snoozy, wha happened?, Found Sheep, ProdigalSon, Charlie brown jr., 144001, mind blown, and Kojack57 , you have PMs from me.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

JeffT

Robert, consider this example.

Assume your idea is accepted and the IRS is authorized to revoke tax exempt status for churches that don't promote "freedom of expression" or whatever.

The United Church of Christ, and the Presbyterian church (among others) now allow the ordination of gay and lesbian ministers. Lets say some homophobic members are expelled for stating that they believe this practice is contrary to scripture. They complain to the IRS, pointing out that they were not disruptive etc, they just openly and forcefully discussed their oppostion to the practice. The IRS consequently revokes the tax exempt status of these two churches.

Is this what you want?

ABibleStudent

JeffT - Robert, consider this example.
Assume your idea is accepted and the IRS is authorized to revoke tax exempt status for churches that don't promote "freedom of expression" or whatever.
The United Church of Christ, and the Presbyterian church (among others) now allow the ordination of gay and lesbian ministers. Lets say some homophobic members are expelled for stating that they believe this practice is contrary to scripture. They complain to the IRS, pointing out that they were not disruptive etc, they just openly and forcefully discussed their oppostion to the practice. The IRS consequently revokes the tax exempt status of these two churches.
Is this what you want?

Hi JeffT, Thank you for commenting on this thread.

I hope that readers of this thread will better understand what the White House petition is trying to accomplish, and that it would be very difficult for a law inspired by this petition to adversely affect an organization that does not use coercion; intimidation; and Behavioral, Information, Thought, and Emotional (BITE) control techniques on its members. Please answer the following questions truthfully:

Does the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church currently expell members for disagreeing with church doctrines?
Do those churches currently promote shunning and marking to its members?
Do members of those religions shun and/or mark current and former members of those religions?
Why would complainants be very afraid of being shunned by their family and close friends as if they were dead?

According to information on Steve Hassan's website (i.e., http://www.freedomofmind.com/Media/Refuting.php and http://www.freedomofmind.com/Media/books/rtbChap2.php), I would find it very difficult to believe that mainline United Church of Christ and Presbyterian Churches use coercion, intimidation, and/or BITE control techniques on its members. If a complainant cannot prove that their organization uses coercion, intimidation, and/or BITE control techniques, the IRS should not consider the complaint valid.

Also, all complaints together would have to show a pattern of behavior that an organization was not promoting freedom of religion and speech. With the WTBTS and similar organizations, it would be easy by submitting articles from WTBTS's publications. It would be a lot more difficult for the WTBTS to prove that it was promoting freedom of religion and speech to its members, unless it announced "New Light" and actively promoted that JWs should actively associate with unrepentant members, former members, and "Worldly" people.

Do you have another scenario that you would like to discuss?

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

JeffT

The answer to all four questions is "I don't know." It was a hypothetical.

I hope that readers of this thread will better understand what the White House petition is trying to accomplish, and that it would be very difficult for a law inspired by this petition to adversely affect an organization that does not use coercion; intimidation; and Behavioral, Information, Thought, and Emotional (BITE) control techniques on its members.

What would make it difficult?

Just out of curiosity, does Steve Hassan know you're referencing his work as support for this?

ABibleStudent

JeffT - The answer to all four questions is "I don't know." It was a hypothetical.
I hope that readers of this thread will better understand what the White House petition is trying to accomplish, and that it would be very difficult for a law inspired by this petition to adversely affect an organization that does not use coercion; intimidation; and Behavioral, Information, Thought, and Emotional (BITE) control techniques on its members.
What would make it difficult?
Just out of curiosity, does Steve Hassan know you're referencing his work as support for this?

Hi JeffT, Thank you again for continueing to ask me questions about the White House petition.

Are you asking for more information about how it would be very difficult for a law inspired by this petition to be used by the government to persecute some religions instead of others? I feel that organizations would be protected from government presecution by promoting freedom of religion and speech to its members. If members do not fear their organization, no member will file complaints with the IRS. No complaints: no IRS investigation and no presecution.

I did write an email to Steve Hassan using his website's contact form about the 1st White House petition. I plan to write him again today (along with contacting other websites) to support the 2nd White House petition.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

ABibleStudent

I just sent the following email and letter to Steve Hassan.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

Letter to Steve Hassan on 06/05/2012 -
Mr. Steve Hassan
c/o Freedom of Mind
P.O. Box 590443
Newton, MA 02459
Phone: 617-396-4638
Dear Mr Steve Hassan:
If you believe that a person has basic rights of freedom of religious belief and speech, please read the White House petition “Protect Millions of Americans from Dangerous Orgs” at http://wh.gov/tFK until%20June%2030 , 2012 and either post a link on www.freedomofmind.com; your twitter account; your Facebook account; “Like” the Facebook link below; and/or email the link to members of dangerous orgs (i.e., cults), former dangerous cult members, and other interested people, who you know. This is my second attempt to promote this petition on the White House website – the first petition expired on May 26, 2012. If 25,000 people (Americans only, probably) sign the petition by June 30, 2012, the White House Staff will review this petition. If more than 150 people sign this petition before June 30, 2012, the petition will be viewable by all White House website visitors and appear on internet search browsers.

For more information about this petition, please read information on the Facebook page “Protecting Americans from Dangerous Orgs” using either http://on.fb.me/wh-petition (short url) or http://www.facebook.com/pages/Protecting-Americans-from-Dangerous-Orgs/264002310365016 . Most of my ideas for identifying a dangerous org, I learned from reading your book “Combatting Cult Mind Control” and relating it to my personal experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Thank you in advance for reviewing and responding to my letter.
Sincerely,
Robert

It's Back! . . . Round 2.

Share this