My nine grievances against the Society from BEFORE I had ever visited a single apostate website...

by cedars 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cedars
    cedars

    John_Mann - I briefly googled the "Sentient Puddle Fallacy" and the results were very, erm, interesting! Clearly some atheists have a problem with people like me who plead ignorance. Of course, ignorance simply means "not knowing", either intentionally or otherwise. If I COULD know everything, I obviously would try my hardest to - so in that respect I am not ignorant in the negative sense of the word. However, I have to question atheists who think it is impossible to be ignorant as to the origins of the universe, when in fact, we know so little about the universe AS IT IS, never mind how it began. 25% of our universe is dark matter, and 70% is dark energy. Am I to understand that calling something "dark" means that you're no longer "ignorant" of what that thing is, irrespective of the fact that you don't have the slightest idea of how to explain its existence?

    The sooner some atheists get to grips with what it means to be ignorant, the sooner I will take them more seriously! People like this guy, jumping up and down complaining about people who admit to being ignorant, come across as angry and delusional to folks like me who understand what "ignorance" actually means - that it isn't intentional, but forced upon us by our own lack of understanding of our universe (at least at this precise moment in human history). If this "Brandon Jett" can explain to me (in full) what dark matter and dark energy is, then I will happily listen to hours of lecturing on how awful it is to be ignorant - and not a moment before!

    As to your second point, yes I too believe that an intelligent beginning to the universe needn't necessarily imply a human-like consciousness. That's another area in which I'm entirely open-minded.

    sd-7 - yes, publications such as the Daniel, Revelation Climax and Isaiah books really go into over-kill when it comes to exaggerating the relevance of the organization's early history. It really wouldn't surprise me if my theory in point 2 regarding the amount of scriptures attributed to the early JWs proved to be correct, but counting all the words and actually proving it can wait until another day as far as I'm concerned!

    Your observations about elders were also interesting. Trust me, when you actually start serving as an elder, your view of them doesn't get any better - if anything it gets worse. You see how very human and POLITICAL the whole elder arrangement is. You see elders lobbying to have their ideas accepted by other elders. You see abuse of power. You see jostling for position. You see outright lies and deception. You name it, it happens!

    Like you say, these things have a habit of building up to the point where you just KNOW that the moment you click on an apostate website you will have all your worst fears about the Society confirmed. It's like you know already that it's all bogus, but "what the heck, let's see just how bad it really is"!!

    Cedars

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    I'm glad I found this thread and am bookmarking it.

    Quendi

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    marked for later

  • Glander
    Glander

    Great post, Cedars. I may have missed it but did you refer to the time frame of your notes? Also, did you ever toss one of these stink bombs out while you were still in?

  • mP
    mP

    Cedars:

    Evolution COULD have been used by Jehovah to create. There is no scriptural reason why not. For example, take plate tectonics. Amos 4:13 refers to Jehovah as the "former of the mountains" but mountains are constantly being formed, so creation is an ongoing process - that is scientifically proven.

    mP-> Cedars:

    Gods always live in the sky and mountains. The Greek pantheon had Mt Olympus for example. Gods always live up there and mountains are up there. The Bible continues this tradition with mountains always being places of communication with God. Mt Sinai, Mt Horeb, Mt Carmel, even Jerusalem is called Mt Zion.

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    Great thread cedars.

    I became an atheist years before looking towards science and exJW material. It was the Bible itself that self districted before my eyes with it's lack of logic. When I did turn elsewhere, I found a mountain of evidence against both the Bible and the Organization.

    There is no more doubt in my mind we evolved - and there IS evidence against evolution in the Bible: if Adam didn't exist, the whole ransom sacrifice is moot. No Adam, and the whole Bible and it's main message crumbles to oblivion.

  • Diest
    Diest

    Nail them to the London Bethal Door!

  • cedars
    cedars

    Thanks everyone! I'm glad people find this thread helpful.

    Glander - I wrote my nine grievances in the spring of 2010, about a year before I finally became inactive and started turning to the internet for answers. Also, I never expressed these doubts to anyone but my wife, for whom the list was intended. I had an experience as a 20-year-old in which I confided in a JW friend of mine regarding some of my early doubts, and it didn't turn out well. That experience taught me to keep my mouth shut and keep my doubts to myself.

    mP - yes, you have a point there about the use of mountains in the Old Testament. I hadn't considered it in quite that way before!

    braincleaned - another issue of contention I have with the bible, as expressed on another thread, is the account of the expulsion from Eden (or the "two trees"). There is nothing in the first three chapters of Genesis that adequately describes the concept of inherited sin. It is as though this concept is superimposed onto the account by subsequent bible writers, specifically Paul. Still, even though I have serious doubts about the bible, I don't quite consider myself an atheist just yet. I prefer to remain agnostic. After all, there's no rush either way!

    Cedars

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    marked for later

    smidy

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks Cedars, your note gives an insight as to the extent of doubt an active but somewhat thinking Jehovah's Witness can carry.

    When I look back the main objections to the WT teaching I had before leaving were 1914, simply nothing in the Bible can be used to get to that date, and the demoting of Jesus by the Governing Body, he is way below them in their opinion.

    I disagreed too from a very young age, pre-teen, with the "New Light" rubbish and the laughable fulfillment of Bible prophecy by what Rutherford and gang got up to in the early 20th Century.

    Despite having these insights I continued to believe that Jehovah had something to do with the religion,that the mistakes and errors were tolerated by Him much as he put up with Israel for centuries.

    Sadly I remained a JW for decades, what a waste of years ! but, as a born-in it is so hard to see that you are in a bubble, a Truman Show, information is, and especially was, so controlled by the WT, and pre Internet hard to get.

    Carrying that level of Cognitive Dissonance did not do me any good, but since leaving and learning that God had never had anything to do with the Russellite/ Rutherford WT or Jehovah's Witnesses I feel a tremendous relief and freedom, I feel I only really started to live since I left.

    I feel so sorry for those who have not fully woken up yet, and struggle on with doubts unspoken and unexplored.

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