by exwhyzee 81 Replies latest jw friends
aSphereisnotaCircle " faith is belief in something that is not supported by facts."
Not sure this is accurate. The brakes on your car are generally reliable if serviced properly. You put faith in them based on the facts. They are not infallible so accidents do happen; same with condoms and parachutes.
tec: You cannot meet them in the flesh, but you can hear/know them in spirit.
cofty: For the thousandth time what do you mean by "spirit". You have said lots about it but never yet defined it. You have blind faith that some such stuff exists even though you can't define it.
cofty, here are some properties of what tec calls "the spiritual" she provided on page 10 of the thread at this link:
tec: "I can define some properties of the spiritual (property is a physical word though, so probably even that is wrong)... though I am probably mistaken in at least some. But you are correct... I have not been there, so cannot 'see' it. I can only get a sense of it.
- consciousness, awareness, emotion, will, thoughts, connection to and in all... God. A form of energy. The ability to remain 'you' with or without the flesh. What makes you, 'you'... underneath your physical being."
consciousness, awareness, emotion, will, thoughts - Tec
None of these things require any explanation beyond the physical body. Neuro-imaging can show exactly where in the brain our various thoughts and emotions originate. We know what chemicals account for them and how to manipulate them. If you have ever had anaesthetic you already know for a certainty that once your brain is subdued you have zero consciousness, awareness, emotion, will or thoughts. How do you imagine these things survive the complete destruction of the brain?
You cannot just invent some stuff called "spirit" because you personally don't understand how your consciousness works. This is a classic example of "faith" being used to plug the gap where evidence falls short.
connection to and in all... God.- Tec
Asserting that god is a "spirit" or that our "spirit" is what we use to link with god is to beg the question. What is this "spirit" of which you speak? Saying that god is made of it tells us nothing about what IT is.
A form of energy. - Tec
Now you have strayed in pseudoscience and you are starting to sound like Depak Chopra. If it is a form of energy it exists in the physical world and you owe us evidence that it exists. Is it part of the electromagnetic spectrum? Please don't resort to the word "Quantum" that would be too embarrassing. You are just making stuff up now.
The ability to remain 'you' with or without the flesh. What makes you, 'you'... underneath your physical being." - Tec
There is no "ghost in the machine" Tammy. You start from this baseless assumption and then you need to come up with an answer to the question of what an incorporeal person is made of so you invent this stuff called "spirit".
Attempting to tell us things about "spirit" is not the same thing as defining it.
"Spirit" = wishful thinking.
Thank you IO, but Cofty has heard all of my descriptions of the spirit in previous discussions. I am still curious what his understanding of the spirit was when he was a believer.
None of these things require any explanation beyond the physical body. Neuro-imaging can show exactly where in the brain our various thoughts and emotions originate. We know what chemicals account for them and how to manipulate them. If you have ever had anaesthetic you already know for a certainty that once your brain is subdued you have zero consciousness, awareness, emotion, will or thoughts. How do you imagine these things survive the complete destruction of the brain?
The brain might be needed to manifest these things in the physical world; but that does not mean that we are limited to the physical world.
I am also not taking consciousness, emotion, etc... and labeling this as the definition of spirit. I am simply stating that these things are part of the spirit.
So no gap.
Now you have strayed in pseudoscience and you are starting to sound like Depak Chopra. If it is a form of energy it exists in the physical world and you owe us evidence that it exists. Is it part of the electromagnetic spectrum? Please don't resort to the word "Quantum"
that would be too embarrassing. You are just making stuff up now.
Everything is a form of energy, Cofty... at least as far as we know. Thank you, Einstein, for getting that ball rolling (unless there is an earlier scientist who had an understanding of the study into energy/matter in the universe and of all things) No psedoscience needed.
There is no "ghost in the machine" Tammy. You start from this baseless assumption and then you need to come up with an answer to the question of what an incorporeal person is made of so you invent this stuff called "spirit".
I did not invent spirit. I understand it in part though. I can listen and hear the One who is spirit. So while I might not be able to define spirit fully, I have no doubt about the existence of the Spirit, and therefore, the spiritual.
There are things that cannot be physically defined (yet), but are real. Science and history prove this.
Peace,
tammy
I can listen and hear the One who is spirit.
No you don't.
You are entitled to think and believe as you will, and of course I understand that you cannot think this to be true.
But I know me... you do not. I know what and who I hear.
Peace,
tammy
I know from 9 years of experience of dozens of people who made exactly the same claims that you do. I also know how unconvincing their claims were when you really got into a proper conversation about it.
Some people just have trouble distinguishing between metaphor and reality. Some have no trouble but are happy for others to misunderstand.
Cofty, I think you and I have had plenty of proper conversations, and yet here we are still. I hope you do not assume that I am trying to convince you. That is not something I can do.
Some people just have trouble distinguishing between meatphor and reality. Some have no trouble but are happy for others to misunderstand.
I do not understand your meaning or point here.
Peace,
tammy
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain
When christians say that god/Jesus/spirit/ whatever "speaks" to them they are talking metaphorically.
If they mean they literally hear voices they are either sick or deluded.
Every time I discussed this with a fellow christian (when I was one) they always admitted it wasn't an actual audible voice. No sound waves, nothing actually going on in the inner ear, no accent, nothing anybody else in the same room could confirm.
Just an impression that they understood something god wanted them to know.
Metaphor not reality.
