Jesus died on a stake or a cross?

by 2SYN 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • 2SYN
    2SYN

    Hi all! This is something I've been puzzling over recently. Just for argument's sake, let's say that Jesus did exist - was he murdered on a stake or on a cross? This is puzzling me, because the only real research I've ever read on the subject was in WTBTS publications, and since this is obviously a highly questionable source of documentation, I'd love it if someone here could point me to a scientific resource for finding out the Truth about this...thx...

    The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    This should be interesting.

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    I'll do some research tonight when I can get to my sources.

    I do know that JW's are the only people in the world that think that Jesus died on a stake.

    I also know that the Roman method of execution was a cross not a stake.

  • Justin
    Justin

    The original Greek word translated "cross" in most versions is "stauros." The WT makes much of the fact that apparently, in classical Greek, this word simply referred to an upright post or stake. However, by the time of the Roman Empire, the stauros frequently had a cross beam attached. There is no way to tell from the New Testament documents (or Christian Greek Scriptures) whether or not Jesus' stauros had this cross beam.

    The earliest testimony is from the early Church Fathers. Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho (chapter 91), written around 135 C.E., goes to great pains in describing the stauros as having a cross beam. It is true that this account was written a century after Jesus' death, but in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it seems that the traditional view is the correct one.

    There was recently an archeological excavation of a stauros from the time of Jesus, and while it is much shorter than the ones in traditional depictions (requiring the victim to squat), it nevertheless has the cross beam.

    As an aside, the NWT translates the verb form "stauro-o" as "impale" rather then crucify, whereas historically to impale someone always meant to shove a stake through their insides and let them dangle, whereas the Society's depictions of the death of Jesus picture him as fastened externally to an upright stake.

    Justin

  • Mr Ben
    Mr Ben

    1. Roman historians mention a cross as the form of execution, acknowleged by the WT - I'll find the reference if you really need it.

    2. A broken prisoner could not carry a full upright pole ( a permanent structure) as it was too heavy, only the crossbeam.

    3. Emperor Constantine repealed crucifixion as a form of capital punishment as it was offensive to Christians - and you cant repeal something unless it exists first.

    4. The bible clearly states that the message about Jesus being king of the Jews was placed above his head (not his hands, which would have been the case had his hands been over his head).

    5. The bible says they saw the imprint of the nails (not nail) in the resurrected Jesus' hands (not hand).

    Religion n.
    An organisation designed to promote atheism.

  • 2SYN
    2SYN

    Well, I was forced to study thru the Greatest Teacher book TWICE damnit, so I just wanted a little bit of clarification on this.

    Squatting? Geez. Would never have considered that. Somehow Christians love to pick up on the idea of Jesus hanging high off the cross, so noble and victorious over his circumstances, but this would change the picture completely. Very demeaning & stuff.

    Thanks, keep the data flowing guys...

    The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age

  • 2SYN
    2SYN

    OK, that totally clears it up, shot!

    The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    In the WT book "Mankind's Search for God," page 351 is a picture of
    Jesus on an upright stake with one nail used in crucifixion.
    However, John 20:25 has Thomas say he will not believe unless he sees in Jesus' hands the print of the nails (plural not singular)indicating that Jesus was crucified on a crossbar with arms outstretched (requiring at least two nails) rather than arms crossed over the head (requiring one nail) as depicted by the Watchtower Society.

  • gumby
    gumby

    The society has clearly stated that the method of execution is really not known, and it is the EVENT which really matters.

    They say this but yet they continue to support the stake idea in all of their drawings in the publications, and in there use of the word STAKE when it is discussed in the literature.

    See what would happen if a publisher used the word cross when speaking of Jesus death to another publisher.

    In actuality, it does not matter how he was crucified. What matters is an organisations insistance upon it's members to believe a certain way.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Jehovah's Witnesses tell us that Jesus died on a "torture stake" and not on a cross. They point out that the Greek word used in the New Testament which is commonly translated as "cross" primarily means an upright stake or pole. However, it is also known from several reliable historical sources that the Romans did in fact often attach a cross piece to a stake or pole when using that stake or pole as an instrument of torture and execution. So, how can we know if the Romans attached a cross piece to the stake or pole which Jesus was nailed to? I believe there are several indications in the Bible that Christ did, in fact, die on a "cross."

    First of all, John 20:25 indicates that "nails" (plural) were driven through Jesus' hands at the time of his execution. Two nails, one through each hand, would have been required to nail Jesus to a cross, but only one nail would have been needed to hold both of Jesus' hands to a torture stake, if his arms were raised over his head with his hands together. For this reason, pictures in the Society's publications of Jesus on a torture stake always show only one nail through both of Christ's hands. So, John 20:25 seems to point to a cross as the instrument used to put Jesus to death.

    Also to be considered is the fact that the Bible tells us a sign was placed "over his head" at the time of Christ's death. (Mt. 27:37) However, the Society's pictures of Christ on a torture stake always show this sign placed over Christ's hands, not directly over his head. Why? Because if Christ's arms were raised over his head and his hands were then nailed to a torture stake there would have been no room to attach such a sign "over his head." Now, I suppose it may be said that any sign that was attached to a torture stake over Jesus' hands would have also been "over his head." But if that sign was actually attached over Christ's hands, as the Society's pictures of Jesus on a torture stake illustrate, why did Matthew say that sign was placed "over his head" rather than "over his hands?"

    Then there are the Old Testament symbolisms which many believe point to the fact that Christ would die on a cross. One is the blood that was splashed "upon the two doorposts and the upper part of the doorway" during the Jews' Passover celebration. (Ex.12:7) This cross of blood is believed by many Christians to have pointed to the fact that Jesus Christ would later shed his blood on a cross at Passover time for the forgiveness of our sins.

    Many also believe that another historical account in the Old Testament was meant to prefigure the fact that Christ would die on a cross. That account is found in Exodus 17:11,12. There we read how the Israelites were only victorious in battle when Moses' hands were held up for him, "one on one side and one on the other." It is said that this account was meant by God to point to the time when mankind would gain victory over sin and death, a victory which would only be gained when Jesus' hands were held up for him on the cross, "one on one side and one on the other."

    "Two Questions About Crucifixion" reads the title of a fascinating article in the April 1989 issue of Bible Review. Below it were two subheadings, "Does the Victim Die of Asphyxiation," and "Would Nails in the Hand Hold the Weight of the Body?"

    In it the author discredits the previous theory of crucifixion as formulated by A. A. LeBec in 1925 and given widespread publicity by Dr. Pierre Barbet from 1953 on, that (1) Jesus died of asphyxiation due to being unable to raise himself up to breathe, and (2) the nails through his hands were actually through his wrists (assuming the palms of the hands could not hold the body weight). It now appears that the evidence does not support Barbet's theory.

    Medical research for this project was done by Frederick T. Zugibe, who is adjunct associate professor of pathology at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, as well as author of The Cross and the Shroud--A Medical Examiner Investigates the Crucifixion. Zugibe demonstrates quite conclusively that:

    (1) Jesus did not die of asphyxiation, but rather from shock and trauma. Additionally, an impaled man with arms stretched straight over his head (as the Watchtower depicts) would suffocate in minutes, whereas a man with hands outstretched to the side at an angle of 60 70 degrees (as on a cross) could live for hours without suffocating.

    (2) There are two locations in the PALM of each HAND that will allow a nail to penetrate and carry the full body weight up to several hundred pounds, making the "wrist theory" unnecessary to explain how Christ's arms were attached to the cross.

    Years ago, LeBec and Barbet had concluded that a person hung by his arms overhead would suffocate in a manner of minutes, due to the inability of the lungs to expand and contract in such a position. Additionally, an Austrian radiologist, Hermann Moedder, experimented with medical students in the 40's, hanging them by their wrists with their hands directly above their heads (much like the Watchtower pictures Jesus on a stake). In a few minutes, the students became pale, their lung capacity dropped from 5.2 to 1.5 liters, blood pressure decreased and the pulse rate increased. Moedder concluded that inability to breathe would occur in about six minutes if they were not allowed to stand and rest.

    The same would apply to Christ, IF he were suspended on a stake as the Watchtower depicts him, hung from hands bound directly overhead. He would have suffocated in a matter of minutes.

    Zugibe, however, discovered that if students were hung by hands outstretched to the side at 60-70 degrees, they would have no trouble breathing for hours on end. Since Luke 23:44 and Matthew 27:45,46 show that Christ was on the cross for about three hours, the evidence points again to death on a traditional cross.

    Zugibe carried out his experiments using a number of volunteers who were willing to try hanging from a cross with several variations, none requiring the mutilation of their flesh or bodily damage. Special leather gloves were used to attach the hands to the crossbeam. To demonstrate that a nail through the hand could hold several hundred pounds, Zugibe, in another experiment, used the severed arms of fresh cadavers, nailing them through either of two locations in the palm of the hands (see illustration) and suspending weights from the arms (a rather gruesome experiment, to say the least!).

    If Jesus did not die of asphyxiation, then what was the cause of his death? Let's review the events of the day Christ died.

    First, Jesus experienced loss in blood volume both from perspiration and from the sweating of blood, due to his mental anguish. After being arrested, he was scourged with a leather whip that had metal weights or bone chips at the ends. As the tips penetrated the skin, the nerves, muscles and skin were traumatized. Exhaustion with shivering, severe sweating, and seizures would follow. Much body fluid would be lost. Even before being hung on the cross, Jesus may have already entered a state of shock, due to the scourging, the irritation of the nerves of the scalp due to the crown of thorns, and by being struck several times. Finally, he was nailed to the cross by large, square iron nails driven through both hands, as well as his feet. The damage to the nerves brought incredible pain, adding to the shock and loss of water. Over a period of three hours, every slight move would have brought excruciating pain. Death would result from extreme shock due to a combination of exhaustion, pain and loss of blood.

    Jan H posted the following material [which I have here edited for length and repetition] a while back.

    First, let us note that the WTS is quite alone in asserting this view that Jesus was killed on a simple stake. No religious denomination that I know of supports the WTS here, except some very few "Name"-groups in the United States. More importantly, no historian in the world (secular or religious) currently agrees with the WTS that there is any evidence whatsoever that Jesus died on a stake without a crossbeam. Neither have the WTS ever presented the slightest bit of real evidence for its claims.

    Early Written Sources

    A fact quite ignored by the WTS, is that there is definite extrabiblical evidence to the exact shape of the "stauros," and this shape is the cross, a T with a lowered crossbeam.

    First, there are quite a few descriptions in early Christian texts. Note that these were written while the Biblical Greek language was still alive, and while the cruel execution practice we call crucifixion was still carried out by the Romans.

    The Christian apologist Justin, writing about 160 CE (long before Constantin) made mention of the shape of the cross at least twice:

    "And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having its hands extended . .. and this shows no other form than that of the cross." (Justin Martyr: "First Apology" in Roberts & Donaldson (ed): Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol I, Eerdmans 1969, p. 181)

    "For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn." (Justin's "Dialogue With Trypho", Chap XC in ANF, p. 245)

    A few decades later Irenaeus wrote:

    "The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in bredth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails." (Irenaeus' "Against Heresies", Chap XXIV in ANF p. 395)

    In 197 AD the Christian writer Tertullian wrote:

    "Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat." (Tertullian in "Ad Nationes" Chap XI in ANF, Vol III, p. 122)

    Note that these writers lived in a period when Crucifixions were still carried out, and could see these horribly executions firsthand. Both Justin and Tertullian referred to cases where Christians were crucified (See ANF, Vol I, p. 254; Vol III, p. 28).

    We even find testimony about the form of the cross by early non-Christian writers. The Greek writer Lukianos (c. 120-180 AD) wrote that the letter T had received its "evil meaning" because of the "evil instrument tyrants put up to hang people upon them. (Lukianos in "Iudicium Vocalium 12", in Martin Hengel in Crucifixion, Fortress Press, 1982, pp. 8,9)

    As if this was not sufficient do we have evidence from the early Bible manuscripts themselves. The manuscripts P66 and P75, that are traditionally dated around AD 200, but may date from as early as the last part of the first century. (See BIBLICA , Vol. 69:2, 1988; which dates the much related P46 this early, and preliminary information from Professor George Howard by letter stated P75 and P66 are "not far behind" in date.)

    Anyway, in P75 the word "stauros" is changed so the T and R together depict a cross with a person on in three places where it occurs, and P66 put a cross into the word "stauros."

    Together, this overwhelming evidence speaks for itself. Why the Watchtower Society has gone to such great lengths to create a completely imaginary case for a "stauros" with no crossbeam is puzzling, but it no doubt have something to do with a need to distinguish itself from other denominations. It should also demonstrate for all how little regard the WTS have for truth. All this information has been made available to the WTS many times.

    Is the Cross a Pagan Symbol?

    Sure. And among these ancient pagan nations who had crosses were the Romans, who selected the torture device that was used to kill Jesus.

    It's very strange that the WTS has this obsession with the cross being a "pagan phallic symbol", and then argues that a pole which is described many times as a pagan fertility symbol in the very Bible, was used to kill Jesus.

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