Can we Die After the Thousand Years and Final Test?

by God_Delusion 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • God_Delusion
    God_Delusion

    Howdy guys and gals,

    I am currently researching some material on what Watchtower Doctrine says with regards to punishments Jehovah candish out to us after the Thousand Year reign and the Final Test.

    My mother (a brilliant woman) always told me that if a human purposefully went against Jehovah after the Thousand Years and the Final Test, Jehovah would instantly put them to death. Is this true? If so, does anyone have any Watchtower sources? I think an article about this would make a fine addition to the current JWB lot, plus it would get us all talking about it on here. Seriously, when was the last time this subject came up?

    Please don't say "last Tuesday"...

    Regards,
    Jaymes

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    I cannot direct you to a link, but the Watchtower used to directly say that the "lake of fire, the second death" would always be around to put an end to any rogue players in the new earth.

    I believe that the 144,000 (once they made it to heaven) were considered to be immune from the "lake of fire".

    So, technically, passing armageddon and the judgement at the end of the 1000 years, really buys you nothing unless you continue to behave.

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    *** w06 8/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

    Questions From Readers
    After the final test at the end of the Millennium, will it be possible for humans to sin and die?
    Two scriptures found in Revelation bear on this: “Death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14) “He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”—Revelation 21:4.

    Note the timing involved here. The hurling of “death and Hades” into the lake of fire takes place after the Armageddon survivors, the resurrected dead, and any born after Armageddon have been judged out of the “things written in the scrolls,” or Jehovah’s detailed requirements for mankind during the thousand years. (Revelation 20:12, 13) The apostle John records another vision, found in Revelation chapter 21, which will be fulfilled during the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus. The complete fulfillment of that vision, however, awaits the end of the thousand-year Judgment Day. Jehovah will then reside with mankind in the fullest sense without any intercessors, Jesus having handed the Kingdom over to his Father. Jehovah will reside spiritually with “his peoples” in a permanent and direct way. “Death will be no more” in the complete sense when mankind will have gained perfection as a result of having the merit of Christ’s ransom sacrifice applied to the full.—Revelation 21:3, 4.

    Thus, the death mentioned in the scriptures quoted above is the Adamic death, which will be nullified by Christ’s ransom. (Romans 5:12-21) With death that mankind inherited from the first man canceled, humans will be just like Adam when he was created. Adam was perfect, but that did not mean that there was no possibility of his dying. Jehovah told Adam not to eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and said: “In the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:17) That was death from deliberate sin. After the final test at the end of the Thousand Year Reign, humans will still be free moral agents. (Revelation 20:7-10) They will still be able to choose of their own free will whether to continue serving Jehovah or not. It cannot be said that no human will ever turn his back on God, as Adam did.

    What would happen to the one who chose to rebel after the final test when there is no death or Hades? At that time, Adamic death is no more. And Hades, the common grave of mankind with the hope of resurrection, is no more. Still, Jehovah can annihilate any rebel in the lake of fire, denying him any hope of a resurrection. That death would be like the death that Adam and Eve experienced, not the death that humans inherited from Adam.

    However, we have no reason to expect any such outcome. Those who pass the final test will differ from Adam in one crucial sense. They will have been fully tested. We can be confident of the thoroughness of the final test because Jehovah knows how to examine people inside and out. We can rest assured that the final test will eliminate any who would misuse their freedom of choice. Thus, although it is possible for those who pass the final test to rebel against God and hence be destroyed, it is very unlikely that such a thing will occur.

  • blondie
    blondie
    Thus, although it is possible for those who pass the final test to rebel against God and hence be destroyed, it is very unlikely that such a thing will occur.

    Remember that these people are given everlasting life. But what about the anointed in heaven that are given immortality. The WTS says that God can still kill these individuals.

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Maybe Blondie can help out, I can't recall anything specifically in print. From a pure logical standpoint, JW paradise and "free will" aren't compatible.

    Think about it, people are going to get tired of eating platters of fruit and petting their lion cubs and panda bears after a while. They are going to "sin" in some way, and God's gonna have to get rid of them or else the scumbags will infect the paradise.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    Remember that these people are given everlasting life. But what about the anointed in heaven that are given immortality. The WTS says that God can still kill these individuals.

    I have never been completely clear on the immortality of the "144,000" - it was generally assumed that they would be immortal, (once in heaven), but I have never seen a definate statement of this in JW doctrine.

    Of course, I cannot comment on this without making a note of how crackpot this all sounds. ("Adamic Death" hurled into the "Lake of Fire", etc.)

  • blondie
    blondie

    The WTS position on "immortality" in heaven as a "spirit" as opposed to "everlasting life" on earth as humans is briefly this:

    Immortals do not depend on food and air and water to exist. They are given a portion of power and are self-sustaining, not even depending on God. Humans are given everlasting life but still need to eat, drink and breathe and thus are dependent on God and his creations. There is a QFR about this and it just puts the 144,000 and Jesus up even higher than anyone else except God. jws used to say that even God could not destroy someone with immortality, but the WTS amended that to say that IF they sinned--God could destroy them. Of course, none of this is based on any scripture, just the WTS pulling this thought out of their nether regions.

    -------------

    I always wondered if humans would have children after the final test, 1000 years after Armageddon, because they would not be tested.

    Blondie (just reporting not supporting)

    *** w56 4/1 p. 219 Questions From Readers ***

    An answer in the November 15, 1955, Watchtower said Jehovah could, if he wished, destroy even an immortal creature. The booklet What Do the Scriptures Say About “Survival After Death”? says that if the demons had originally been created immortal they could not be destroyed from the universe. Which is correct?—J. L., United States.The statement in the booklet about survival after death refers to immortality according to its basic meaning of deathlessness, indestructibleness. The other statement about God’s ability to destroy even an immortal creature rested upon the view that he is absolutely almighty without any limitation upon his own power by even himself. So this latter statement presented what seems in accord with this view. However, it enters into the realm of speculation, because it is in fact based on a speculative question.

    *** w55 11/15 pp. 702-703 Questions From Readers ***Can man sin after the final test at the end of the thousand-year reign, and if he did could Jehovah put him to death, since Revelation 20:14 and 21:4 (NW) say “death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire” and “death will be no more”?—J. M., Mexico.

    Hence we are letting the statement in the booklet stand, in accord with the meaning of absolute immortality as conveyed in the Holy Scriptures. A fuller discussion on this may be expected in time in the columns of The Watchtower.

    The death spoken of here is the death due to Adam’s sin, and then it will not have any power over mankind. Even its past effects will be nullified by the resurrection of its victims. All who are to remain permanently dead or in second death will be in that condition because of willful indifference or wickedness. So in the new world there will be no death due to Adamic sin.

    But the passing of the final test at the end of the thousand years will not make men into robots. They will still be free moral agents, choosing their own course of conduct. Hence they could sin if they chose to do so. And if they did, Jehovah, with whom nothing is impossible, could put them to death, and it would be no contradiction of the above scriptures, since this death would not be Adamic death. We cannot conceive of the Creator’s being powerless to destroy a rebellious creature. He is the Almighty God. And the lake of fire, a symbol of second death, exists forever, which would suggest that any creatures becoming rebellious could be pitched into it by being destroyed.

    On the other hand, we need not expect any such happenings. Jehovah made man, knows him inside out and knows how to test him to see how he will use his freedom of choice. So we may have complete confidence in the thoroughness of the test at the end of the thousand years, that it will ferret out all the unworthy ones and eliminate them, leaving only those of demonstrated reliability, in whom confidence can be placed, just as Jehovah accurately judged Job and knew he would not deflect even under extreme satanic pressure. For any to sin after passing the final test would imply that the test was faulty, that Jehovah was unable to test with sufficient searchingness. But his test will be a success and accomplish its purpose of weeding out any who would ever misuse their freedom of choice to choose sin.

    Reasoning in the same way, there will be no danger of any of the heavenly class who have gained immortality later choosing to sin, and thus awkwardly having in the universe immortal rebels. But here again, even if such a thing did happen, we need not think that Jehovah would be powerless. Jehovah could destroy even an immortal creature. Immortality means to have the power of life within oneself. In other words, such a creature is not dependent on any outside source or environment to replenish energy or for the continuance of the life processes. Human creatures must eat, and spirit creatures apparently draw upon an outside source for continued existence, but immortal ones would not have to do this. They cannot die from a lack in their environment, but have life complete in themselves. Nevertheless, the all-powerful Jehovah could terminate their existence if he decided to do so.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    There is a QFR about this and it just puts the 144,000 and Jesus up even higher than anyone else except God. jws used to say that even God could not destroy someone with immortality, but the WTS amended that to say that IF they sinned--God could destroy them.

    Yes, this was the confusing "reasoning" on this subject that I seem to remember...

  • Yan Bibiyan
    Yan Bibiyan

    I have never been completely clear on the immortality of the "144,000"

    The way it was explained to me in my attempted indoctrination was that immortality just means one can not die (from natural causes, accidents, etc). Everlasting life is another layer on top that guarantees, hmmm, everlasting life...

    As you can see, exactly the opposite to what blondie quoted above.

    Clear as a bell, ain't it?

  • Ding
    Ding

    It appears the WTS doesn't believe that "everlasting" necessarily means everlasting...

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