This sort of reminds me of the crackpot notion that God COULD have foreseen that Adam & Eve would sin, but he actually PREVENTED HIMSELF from foreseeing it.
Which makes "free will" on the part of Adam sort of a moot point in Jehovahland.
Can we Die After the Thousand Years and Final Test?
by God_Delusion 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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King Solomon
I'm still enjoying the ridicularity and hijinks ensuing from this statement:
The other statement about God’s ability to destroy even an immortal creature rested upon the view that he is absolutely almighty without any limitation upon his own power by even himself.
So, God's omnipotence cannot be limited, EVEN by the so-called Fruitages of His OWN Spirit (repeat after me: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control)? He's not limited, even by those?
Kinda makes sense: for how many of those same fruitages did he demonstrate throughout the OT, violating how many of those "fruitages" when he expressed regret for making mankind before the Flood (flip-flop #1)? So God decided to wipe mankind off the face of the Earth (including innocent infants and animals), only to flip-flop on the issue AGAIN by regretting that (hence the reason given for creating rainbows: it was his Covenant to mankind not to fly off the handle like that even again)?
How comforting to learn from the QFTR that ALL such promises made to mankind are NOT actually legally-binding on Him, just us!
Pretty much what everyone knows: it's GOOD to be God (or at least it's good to be the one the one who claims to speak for God).
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james_woods
So, God cannot make a rock so big that he cannot move it?
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King Solomon
This sort of reminds me of the crackpot notion that God COULD have foreseen that Adam & Eve would sin, but he actually PREVENTED HIMSELF from foreseeing it.
Which makes "free will" on the part of Adam sort of a moot point in Jehovahland.
Huh, I guess I missed the part in Genesis 2 where YHWH held his Omniscience Ring sky-ward, and shouted, "Deactivate Omniscience Powers!"
But it wouldn't be even THAT simple, for He'd have to "unknow" (AKA forget) ALL ELEMENTS of the future which he already knew, as He was omniscient before creating anything.
He'd have to actively self-induce a BAD case of amnesia, forgetting ALL the future (The Fall, the Jesus' story, the Revelations stuff: in fact, He'd have to forget ALL of it, as it would ALL be a clue to Adam's fall). That pretty much would leave him Incapable of rendering ANY prophecy, including the one that appears at Genesis 3:15 (unless he activated omniscience immediately after the Fall: damn, I'm doing the apologetists work for them!).
Perhaps that partly explains the 1975 failed prophecy, and "the last generation" policy change, LOL!
Oh, I've posted in another thread about how it is incorrect to characterize Adam and Eve as possessing "free will", certainly if using any legal definition of free will. You might read it if you get a chance. YouTube has some parodies of the ridiculous nature of the situation, which ex-JWs might enjoy:
God gets sued for manufacturiing a faulty product, and the failed recall of mankind (AKA the Flood)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGQvQv9o-Mg
Adam tries to let God down easily...
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james_woods
Exactly so, King Solomon.
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King Solomon
This is perhaps the most honest of the apologeticist's arguments I've seen:
From http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html
So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?
The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory ( Psalm 19:1 ), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God ( Romans 1:23 ). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory ( Romans 3:23 ), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light ( Revelation 21:23 ). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.
The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24 . Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all ( Revelation 20:7-10 ).
The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved ( John 3:16 ; Ephesians 2:8-9 ). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners ( Philippians 2:11 ). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.
The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter III:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)
What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.@@@@@@
WOW, what cynical rationalization, as it admits that YHWH is a sociopath who demands constant validation that he's the biggest, baddest, omni-omni'est deity on the polytheistic bunch (which BTW, doesn't explain why his Chosen People were repeatedly taken captive after their land was invaded, what, like 8x, by foreign powers with THEIR foreign Gods? Yeah, it was something THE Hebrews did wrong....)
At the very least, YHWH is made out to be a petulant child who constantly demands approval, with his "mommy, look at me now!" cries for attention and glory.
Of course, the rationalization above only opens MORE cans of worms, since if God actually is operating from some undivulged Top-Secret Master Plan (perhaps code-named "Operation Glory"), then humans choosing their "free choice" to sin ALSO fit into the Master Plan: they're giving YHWH an excuse to demonstrate His Power, His Glory.
So Satan isn't the "bad guy", but an angel/actor assigned to play the critical role of villain; Hebrews are familiar with this concept of a fall guy, since their literally released a goat (called a scape-goat) into the Wilderness to die, as a sacrificial victim to carry off their sins and atone for them. Jews were indoctinated in offering sacrifices; the symbolism of lambs/sheep to be sacrificed (not "saved") to be slaughtered and eaten was not lost on them.
So who's the martyr for YHWH again: Jesus, Satan, or both?
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The NT, the literary work of Xianity, is the ULTIMATE example of fan fiction, where someone hijacked Judaism's plot-line in an attempt to take the story from a "Jewish-members-only" direction to one where membership was broadened to Gentiles who joined the group (but still making another "in-group").
The whole premise Abrahamic religions are based on is so bat-guano crazy, it's amazing anyone takes it seriously, much less gives their or their children's lives away (the one only you'll ever have, folks) in it's name...
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Aussie Oz
oh the poor JWs
tethered on a short string for eternity
not my idea of paradise thanks!
oz
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Chariklo
My mother (a brilliant woman) always told me that if a human purposefully went against Jehovah after the Thousand Years and the Final Test, Jehovah would instantly put them to death. Is this true? If so, does anyone have any Watchtower sources? I think an article about this would make a fine addition to the current JWB lot, plus it would get us all talking about it on here. Seriously, when was the last time this subject came up?
That's exactly what my study conductor told me. Pretty well word for word.
I didn't believe her but it was easier to keep her happy...
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james_woods
God really seems to like killing people.
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Ding
Sounds like the WTS doesn't believe what it calls the final test is really the final test.