stake or cross?

by Tekel 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  kepler

  Was it (stauros) a stake or cross?

  I will cite a noted authority on this matter, "Judge" Joseph Rutherford who refers to this matter in his book of the 1920s, "The Harp of God". On page 135 of The Harp of God in a chapter titled “The Ransom”, Rutherford writes: “Thus died the Son of God, the great anti-typical ‘Lamb… which taketh away the sin of the world’. (John 1:29) In the eyes of those that stood by he died as a sinner, crucified between two thieves under the charge of disloyalty to the constituted powers, yet wholly innocent, harmless and without sin.”

  On page 181 of the same book, on the first page of a chapter titled, String 7: Mystery Reveaedl, paragraph 299.

  “ On the last night before his crucifixion [Jesus] was instructing them in various things that would be helpful to them in the days to come.”

  As OGD wrote, Greek was the local language, but the administration of Palestine and court procedings were undertaken under Roman law. In an early episode of his career Julius Caesar crucified the pirates who took him captive among his many commentaries, if not on the Gallic Wars, but writing in Latin all the same. Spartacus and the other gladiators who had revolted in the 70s BC were crucified (6000, if not Spartacus included) by Crassus or Pompey, but the historical accounts (Appian and Livy) we have describe the administration of justice with the same Greek verb as appears in the NT. My conclusion: when a Roman writes stauros in Greek, he means cross.

  I suppose much of this is a matter of the mind's eye. Substitute Christ saying to the rich man, give up all that he owns and "then pick up your torture stake and come follow me." Lenny Bruce had once considered the possibility of Christ's execution in New York state being by electric chair. ..But in either alternate case, somehow the message seems distorted. Cross in subsequent context signifies "sacrifice". I don't know about you, but to me, "taking up the torture stake" simply denotes masochism. Bad translation no matter how many crossbars are involved in one or the other.

  The southern constellation Alpha Crucis is not simply a line but a cross...

  If there were a transformation of this notion from stake to cross, it must have come early. Constantine's wife searched for the remains of the "true cross" and Constantine himself claimed he was inspired by a vision ("in hoc signum"). Whether either are inspiring or not, the vision of a vertical post does not seem as "visual" as two intersecting lines or timbers. Both of these 4th century figures spoke Greek; so I don't think they were having Greek translation problems. But they were not around when the "Judge" had a 20th century PR inspiration that would distinguish his movement from all of those millenia old "pagan cults". Just one of the many ways that Christian community had gone off the rails until the great leader, speaker and writer came along to put it back on the track after 1914.
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  kurtbethel

  Getting their Jesus killed on a stake outs them as People of the Obelisk.
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  redvip2000

  Stauros actually means both "stake" and "cross".

  In classical greek it means stake. In Koine Greek it means cross.

  During the time when the new testament was written, Koine Greek was used, but the Watchtower wouldn't wanna tell you about that, would they?
• 

  OldGenerationDude

  It is not “Christian language” we are speaking of. The cross used by Romans was not pagan. That is a mistake made by the uneducated. And it matters whether or not the story about Jesus of Nazareth is true or not.

  As I've mentioned many times before (and have grown tired of saying--I'm sure some are tired of reading this too, but it really works into what I'm saying here) I’m a Jew. I'm not trying to advocate the worship of any object or shape by what I'm writing here. Many of my people (people in my actually family line) suffered not only at the hands of Catholic inquisitors during the infamous Spanish Inquisition (my family lived in Portugal and Spain during this period), we also suffered during the Roman rule of our Land.

  Our own Jewish history testifies to the use of the cross to kill many of my people. It was not a language invention of Christians but a real torture device devised by and used of the Roman government.

  If the New Testament never existed, you would still have Jewish records along with the physical evidence from Roman history and archaeology proving that the Romans crucified on crosses, not upright stakes. Stating that objects that looked like crosses were worshiped by heathens doesn’t change the fact that Romans used crosses not upright stakes to torture criminals as a means of capital punishment.

  The Jewish Encyclopedia, as a matter of fact, shows that crucifixion, not impalement, was used by the Romans.(http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion) Are you claiming that our language, Hebrew, was changed by “Christian language” just so we Jews could get Christians to worship a cross? Why would Jews promote the worship of idols? Wouldn’t that be sinning against God?

  And what of the physical evidence for literal crosses that exists? How did “Christian language” produce these ancient artifacts and twist human remains over 2,000 years old to look as if they were put on a cross in order to keep up this “hoax” caused by “Christian language”?

  For the sake of argument, let’s say that the “Jesus being crucified” thing never happened. Romans still used the cross. My people were still crucified on crosses, not stakes, and etymology is still correct when it explains—as redvip2000 points out—that the common Greek of the first century meant two-beamed cross whenever “stauros” was used.

  I’m not denying that people worship crosses or that some heathens used similar objects. What I am saying is that this has more to do than just with the instrument described by the Christians in their accounts about Jesus of Nazareth—regardless if one considers it true or false. What is being said is that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses are twisting reality and offering this as “Kingdom Truth!”

  This is the damage the Watchtower does to people. It causes people to be blind to evidence, so blind that they will not believe their eyes, not educate themselves regarding history or etymology, not step into a museum in order to preserve their view. When the educated mind speaks logic, they jump into their “it’s paganism” dance routine. I for one will not let their attempt at evading the empirical evidence on hand (by trying to draw our attention away to their pathetic-excuse at entertainment) from discussing the fact that they are academically incorrect and in the objective sense wrong about what they teach. It does matter—not because I’m trying to advocate Christianity, but because I’m trying to show they are screwing with language, history, and the archaeological record itself by their silly reasoning.

  Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the human mind under the influence of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses: capable of denying empirical evidence! Behold how they offer a dance regarding paganism when they should be offering proof (because they cannot argue against empirical evidence). Truly I say to you, there is nothing like it anywhere in the entire universe!
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  Balaamsass

  The Romans killed thousands on crosses throughout history. Why would they make up something special for Jesus ? JWFACTS covers the subject well in one page.

  They have uncovered remains of Romans victims with nails inserted the way the Bible describes...NOT the way WTBTS describes.
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  Tekel

  Hello Everyone,

  Thank you for welcoming me to the forum. And thank you BlackSheep for letting me know about the IE9 issue - strange since this site appears to have been built using Microsoft software.

  Anyway, I was raised a Jehovah's Witness from the age of 2 or 3, baptized when I was probably about 15, and left the organization when I was 20. I am now in my 40s. My parents remained JWs until their passing, my dad passed away about 2 years ago at which point I was forced to communicate with JWs again. Losing my dad was hard enough, add to that having to deal with JW elders and others, the experience brought back a lot of bad memories but it also reminded me how lucky I was that I had escaped the brain washing they had given me for so many years.

  Reading your replies to my question, stake or cross?, I was fascinated to see some of the same spectrum of feelings I had towards the JW cult after I left. For example, I understand that it doesn't matter whether or not it was a cross or a stake when you stop to think about the importance of Christ's message, and what he offered us (I should also point out that I believe that there are other paths to salavation besides the Christian one). But as OldGenerationDude points out, which was my reason for posting this topic; the very fact that an organization can make a claim such as their's regarding a "torture stake" and brainwash everyone of its members into believing it (when the evidence to the contrary isn't just interpretation of scripture but hard cold facts), it shows just how despicable and disgusting the Watchtower Society really is.

  Does it matter to God if we believe it was a cross or a stake? Or that we celebrate birthday parties or not? I say no. But if you are a JW and believe it was a cross or you do celebrate your birthday or your child's, well you know what happens. All this from an organization that calls itself "The Truth".

  Should it matter to those of us who have left? I suppose in some ways, not worrying about these things anymore is better than the alternative but at the same time I can't help but think of good people who still believe these lies.

  I very much appreciate the time all of you took to respond to my post. I had found similar information in other places but some of what was posted is very new to me. The post about Koine Greek was really great. This thread was an awesome read for me and I hope that persons who are still under control of the Watchtower Society stumble upon it and end up feeling the same.
• 

  pseudoxristos

  For amusement next time you talk to a JW, ask them what the Koine Greek for cross is.

  Pseudo
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  BluesBrother

  The WTS likes to use a picture from a medieval book by Justus Lipsius to justify the use of the word "stake". That picture shows a man hanging on an upright pole. In the book there are many other variations of the torture-stake and they are crosses. The book was in latin but I found this translation on line.

  ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF

  "DE CRUCIS LIBER PRIMUS"

  The following is the translation from Latin to English of excerpts from "DE CRUCE LIBER PRIMUS...........

  Page 650

  "I do not know whether the words of Innocent to this matter should be referred to: 'In the Lord's cross there were four pieces of wood, the upright beam, the crossbar, a tree trunk (piece of wood) placed below, and the title (inscription) placed above......When I examine many following words of Innocent, I would say he did not know about this board place in, but truly (as he says) he knew about the trunk placed below, from which the cross itself rose.Thus it appears he knew this; that there was some kind of trunk, and either it was placed at the bottom of the cross to prop it (the Greekscall this kind of oblique prop 'registers ' ) or the trunk was placed under the upright beam itself in the ground, to which it was inserted-so that the beam might stand more firmly...... Also they hand down (this a count by) Irenaeus: ' The construction itself of the cross has five ends; "two on the vertical and two on the horizontal, and one in -he middle where the person attached with nails rested. '.....They divide the cross into five ends ('points' Tertullian called them), those four which are known (familiar) and extend out; and the fifth which they place in the middle of the crass, where the transverse beam cuts and crosses the fixed beam......"

  "I have translated these passages as accurately as possible and to the best of my ability". (Marie Tseng, Teaching Assistant, University of S. California, USA. 10/3/76)"

  Does the shape of the thing really matter ? No. What matters is the honesty and the scholarship of the WTS. It is that which is seen to be sadly lacking
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  Farkel

  've said it before and I'll say it again: if Jesus was hung on a stake that means his hands had to be crossed above his head. That being the case, how could anyone read the sign that was placed just above his head?

  The Bible said the sign was placed above his head, NOT above his arms over his head.

  Farkel
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  Sam Whiskey

  If we are to believe the Bible (and I do), he died as a ransom sacrifice for all men. Therefore, would it matter how he died? Is it not enough to simply acknowledge that he did in fact...die?