Surprising 5 graduate degrees that don't pay off

by Scott77 29 Replies latest social current

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    "...I came across a local for-profit school that offers paralegal degrees for only two years of college. Not one student researched the program to know the job placement rates which I assume are abysmal..."
    Band on the Run

    I think, some individuals are smart but can only advance by with a degree as a formality. Having a liberal arts degree education on your chest increases my name recognition regardless of where you earned it. With that comes the employment options as well. Most clients I think are not drawn by one's school name but how many cases an attorney has won in courts.

    Scott77

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No, which law school you graduate from determines what types of jobs you will be able to land. Large firms only hire from the top. They only hired from the very top (top ten) until they expanded greatly. With the contraction of the industry, they may return to the top ten once more. Elite federal agencies, such as the Justice Department, Federal Reserve, SEC primarily hire top tier law grads. In fact, until recentlyf, Jewish lawyers were excluded from these fields. It explains why there is a concentration in personal injury cases. Also, white ethnics would not be hired. Now these critera are a boost in getting hired.

    Top tier law students frequently specialize in federal law areas. If I had a negligence case, such as this one, I would skp top tier grads and hire a middle tier grad.

    It is almost impossible for the lowest tier to find jobs in a great economy. I may not agree with these categories but they present a reality.

    Partners fight with each other to get slots for their law schools. Certainly, experience is a factor that affects salary. Experience being equal, law school matters. It matters a lot initially. Once you are established, your credentails speak for themselves. I don't think which law school you graduate from affects performance of routine legal matters. Everyone must attend an ABA accredited law school and pass a bar exam. When it comes to bar exams, however, top tiers law grads perform almost 30% better at passing than lowest tier schools.This may say little about the quality of education as the selection of students favors those who test well.

    This is the general story I've been following over the course of forty years. Currently, several graduates from the lowest tier schools have started law suits against their schoos, claiming that the schools were not honest about placement rates. Quality does mattrer. On the other hand, I read posts where students say they don't want to work for Justice or a large firm. They want to practice local law.

    Of course, if your family has a law firm with an opening for you, life is gravy. All a good school does is get you in the ball park, which is not that easy. These facts are problematic in many ways but there is reality to face.

    There are so many fulfilling and money earning professions/careers to join. I would rather be a violin maker or carpenter than at the bottom of a profession. Yes, lowest tier grads can do well but they fight an entrenched system. In my experience, which college you attended does not make such a difference as which law school you do. Of course, a top tier law grad can be a bad practiiconer.

    Why this is such a heated subject is beyond me. There are a surplus of materials on the Internet backing up my view.

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    "...In fact, until recentlyf, Jewish lawyers were excluded from these fields..."
    Band on the Run

    Ok, thank you for your prespective. However, can you please, clarify on that above statement? I never knew jews continue to face employment discrimination to this day. Is that a written government policy or some individual decisions in the higher ups? Jews are among the must successful people in banks, hollywoods,media and I heard, they are the ones who formed ACLU.

    Scott77

  • Razziel
    Razziel

    "And often the best, or only way to get a raise is to expand your skills with some outside training and apply at some other company."

    Very true. The unfortunate truth is it is often more profitable for your career to job-hop the first 5 years before you settle down somewhere with a 2-3% yearly raise and the occasional promotion. You can easily make 25-50% more over the course of your career by moving around a few times towards the beginning.

    "No, which law school you graduate from determines what types of jobs you will be able to land."

    Also very true, and applicable for other professional degrees as well. This is biting some large companies in the behind as they are hiring for top-tier education, while their competitors are hiring for top-tier talent, and they aren't the same thing. But it's also much harder to interview for talent, and requires your HR and Management to have better recruiting skills, whereas it is easier for Management to rubber stamp hiring graduates of the best schools with the best GPAs.

    I see this in my own job experience when the business managers ponder why we are consistently behind the competition in new ideas, marketshare, and profitability when the majority of our employees are PhD's from top schools.

    I think an email conversation I read a few weeks ago sums up why. PhD1 asks, "What do we do when we've reached six sigma quality on our products?" PhD2 replies, "Then we shoot for seven and eight sigma. Because we can." Keep in mind, this is for products that have volumes of less than 10,000 each per year. It brings a lot more overhead to the company, and no additional value to investors, or customers.

    Some of the best educated know a lot, but they understand very little.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    The smarter partner when I started attended Yale and Yale. He was so brilliant. Others used to feel bad b/c he had to deal with us mere mortals. In practical terms, he wasn't so successful. He knew every law review article but he could not communicate with other partners b/c he had such an extraordinary brain. People used to make nice jokes about this problem.

    The Ivy League, investment banks, advertising agencies, and other elite groups excluded Jews by quota (only a small percentage). It was an express quota. Not too long before I graduated school, Columbia solved the problem by holding mandatory first year classes on Saturdays. My school was a relative late comer. Most of the students were local New York Jews. I don't know whether there is any proof but more than one Jewish alumni told me that the public interest scholarship which I received was not designed for public interest. Rather, it was to offer free tuition to WASP prep school grads. This argument is bolstered by looking at old photographs of the scholars.

    I know Jewish people who strive to be admitted to the WASPIEST institution that once excluded them. Today lawyers classify law firms as Jewish or Christian. Until WWII, there was a strict demarcation. After WWII, some new large Wall St. law firms opened with both religious groups as partners. There were no white ethnic partners, black ones, or women. The integration only started when the Civil Rights laws were enforced while as I was in school. Private schools in NY are the same way. According to the law firms, no blacks or women or white ethnics were qualified. Just as the Witnesses justify Southern segregated KHS by local custom, the law firms said they were only accomodating their clients. The government called this bunk. I started practice in 1981. A fairy must have sprinkled magic dust over law schools b/c all of a sudden half the entering lawyers were women and many blacks were hired. Nothing happened to the practice.

    I specifically chose to practice at a WASP firm b/c I felt more comfortable after working other places. It would have been to my advantage to practice in a Jewish firm b/c I could get away with more crap. If the firm crossed me, I could scream religious prejudice. It is crazy but every starting associate made this personal calculus. If the firms had been mixed from the beginning, such distinctive cultures would not exist.

    Jews went into fields which accepted them. Government hired Jews, at least up north. Creative places, such as Hollywood, were not as segregated. Fashion is another Jewish stronghold. The ACLU has a strong Jewish practice b/c as an outside group, Jews identified wth movements for human rights. The laws that protected African-Americans also impact Jewish people. This support was largely withdrawn when the ACLU Board decided to represent Nazis who wanted a permit to march through Skokie, ILL., a stronghold of concentration camp survivors. Many thought the ACLU would die. Christians were not permitted to lend money. For Europe to function, Jewish people were needed in banking. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jews being money hungry.

    Hopefully, the culture is changing. Any such discrimination is highly illegal now. I see a public face and a different private face but there is no doubt it has changed. It takes more than one or two generations, however. I knew nothing about this before I lived in New York. It is a hot topic there.f

    Besides, prospering where they were able to work, the Jewish culture highly favors education. Something some Christians oppose. Torah and Talmud study are hard work. Learning Hebrew is not easy. It makes sense that such a culture would prosper when quotas and other prejudices disappeared.

  • mP
    mP

    The real reason the WTS hates university is the astrology origin. Just look at the terms one goes to University to get a Degree...The original univerisities were for the study of astrology.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    mP,

    I don't understand the astrology reference. Madeleine L'Engle told me that astronomy and astrology were once intertwined but that was a long time ago. My understand is that most universities started as seminaries. I feel the WT fears universities b/c critical thinking skills are vitally important. Actual knowledge of the courses is not as important as critical assessment across many fields. It opens your eyes. Also, you are taught how to do independent research. This is stressed over reading assigned texts.

    Once you can research academic subjects, you are able to research WT statements and find all their distortions and lies. Universities should make you wary of blind authority, too.

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    It opens your eyes. Also, you are taught how to do independent research. This is stressed over reading assigned texts.

    Once you can research academic subjects, you are able to research WT statements and find all their distortions and lies. Universities should make you wary of blind authority, too.

    Band on the Run
    Yes, very true. Most JWs lack critical thinking skill in which any presentation is critically analyzed and opposing views are compared and contrasted. In the case of the Watchtower, one's expression of an opposing opinion or a mere presentation of the same is considered satanic or apostate thinking. In my case,I researched through google to find out stories about the Watchtower manipulation and lies. I used to regard Bethel as a holy place, those beautiful awake photos and books really captivated my mind until I made a physical visit to Bethel in Paterson and Wallkill . The experience was not inspiring. Look at the Watchtower Farm. What kind of farm is it? The entire area looks like a five star hotel. But I had a better frame of reference to compare that with that I knew elsewhere are being more better that the Peterson facility. Also, about 2000 people eat food eat meal, mostly all wearing ties and white shirts. Again, college restaurants are much better because they are structured in a way that makes it easy to lead a relaxed life. Scott77
  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I don't think the food raised and served at the WT farm is going to compete with The Ritz or Lutece.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Why isn't 4 years at Bethel and 2 years as a Gilead missionary mentioned in that list?

    Those guys/gals don't make shit after their "education?"

    Farkel

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