Must not go off topic now.
Not while the topic police have their radar out.
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions 173 Replies latest jw friends
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james_woods
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Momma-Tossed-Me
james woods is bringing a fair and balanced view of the conversation regarding JW's wanting a government to take care of them in totality from cradle to forever in their case. the otherside is the mahority of people exitingthe JW's make no religious affiliation a policy.
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cofty
Sulla - You and I have the very same dilemma. We both make our own meaning in life. We find things that we value and which gives us a sense of purpose. Family, friends, altruistic acts, hobbies, good food, sex etc.
We both avoid dwelling on the fact that it will soon be over and ultimately it was " Vanity of vanities ". The difference is that I'm ok with that, I know I will die and return to non-existence. That doesn't stop me enjoying life and finding meaning in it, however transitory. You feel a need to pretend that there is more to life; an ultimate, perfect reality of which this is just a reflection.
Your need for a greater reality does not make it so - its just your story that helps you deal with life. So be it, but don't get smug about your comforting delusions.
If my children decide to adopt a spiritual belief - but please god don't let it involve an old man in a silly hat - then good luck to them. I think its highly unlikely. I did not teach my children to be athiests but I did teach them to be skeptics; to demand evidence for everything that matters. Athiesm to me is just one invetiable aspect of critical thinking.
I suspect it is this that explains the survey. Many of those who later became religious were probably brought up by intelletually lazy parents whose atheism owed more to apathy than to reason.
Your single-sentence grunt of a reply is eagerly awaited. - Sulla
No need to be such a prick Sulla.
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Sulla
Arrogant prick.
Heh. And to think I said you would reply with a single-sentence grunt, cofty. I guess it's my turn: cofty, you're a useless little cocksucker.
But, you make some interesting points later.
We both avoid dwelling on the fact that it will soon be over and ultimately it was " Vanity of vanities ". The difference is that I'm ok with that, I know I will die and return to non-existence. That doesn't stop me enjoying life and finding meaning in it, however transitory. You feel a need to pretend that there is more to life; an ultimate, perfect reality of which this is just a reflection.
I think that the point I am making is that the atheist position is that there really isn't any meaning in anything. You can certainly enjoy life and build things that will last some time and have children and grandchildren and so on. And those things are legitimately enjoyable. But they don't have meaning because nothing has meaning in this universe. We don't have a purpose that is different from the purpose of any other primate.
That's not necessarily a bad thing -- if reality is precisely as you say, then it is the only right thing. But -- getting back to the theme of this thread -- I think a great many people who are raised in atheist households find that your viewpoint is at odds with the human experience which they feel points in a different direction.
Your need for a greater reality does not make it so - its just your story that helps you deal with life. So be it, but don't get smug about your comforting delusions.
I don't think I suggested my need for a greater reality makes it so. What I suggested is that humanity has always perceived a greater end for itself than merely what we see. This search for larger meaning -- and the rejection of greater meaning that atheism necessarily implies -- generally leads people who are raised in atheist homes to not be atheist after a while. Not getting smug, simply pointing out a real weakness of the atheist proposal: it is far more compelling among those who convert to it than those who are raised in it.
Athiesm to me is just one invetiable aspect of critical thinking.
I suspect it is this that explains the survey. Many of those who later became religious were probably brought up by intelletually lazy parents whose atheism owed more to apathy than to reason.
Does it seem odd to you that critical thinkers are inevitably atheists yet the overwhelming majority of them are also intellectually lazy and motivated by apathy instead of reason? That seems odd to me.
No need to be such a prick Sulla.
There is some need, cofty.
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cofty
I think a great many people who are raised in atheist households find that your viewpoint is at odds with the human experience which they feel points in a different direction. - Sulla
A wish for life not to end does not point to anything other than an ability to reflect on the end of life. The search of alchemists is not evidence that there is a greater truth behind thier labours.
Does it seem odd to you that critical thinkers are inevitably atheists yet the overwhelming majority of them are also intellectually lazy and motivated by apathy instead of reason? - sulla
No not really. Many people lack faith in god and may casually describe themselves as athesits but they still read horoscopes, take homeopathic medicine, declare a belief in an impersonal fate and follow lots of silly superstitions. They are atheists but not critical thinkers.
I suspect this is where your ex-atheists are coming from.
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Sulla
Two quick observations, cofty. First, your explanation for the very low retention rates is basically bad catechesis by atheist parents and a suggestion that some significant number of those who are categorized as atheists in the Pew study have categorized theselves improperly. I don't much like either of those explanations.
In the second case, Pew seems to have been pretty careful about this study, which goes back several years. Categories of self-selection don't seem to have limited choice very much -- we see the option for "nothing in particular," for example. Moreover, whatever problems might exist with weakly-attached atheists messing with the numbers must also apply to lots of other religious groups: there are very many weakly-attached Catholics.
The point about bad atheist catechesis is interesting, and I have seen in offered on this thread before. What I would suggest is that even good atheist catechesis is bad atheist catechesis. By that is just mean the central claims of atheism are a little, uh, wibble?
For example, you keep making this point: " Your need for a greater reality does not make it so - its just your story that helps you deal with life." True, but what you don't seem to grasp is that my need ofr greater reality also doesn't make it untrue. I may need to believe Spain have won the Euro Cup -- that doesn't make it either true or else false, it has no bearing on the fact. That makes a significant number of atheist statements about the matter entirely beside the point. Theists are bad people, theists merely need a crutch to face reality, theists aren't rational thinkers, etc. All of those things may be true, but none of them have any bearing on the question of the existence of God.
So why does a critical thinker like you keep bringing them up?
I think this points to another weakness in the atheist approach, one that becomes more obvious to those who were raised atheists instead of those who converted to the cause.
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simon17
Scientistis and critical thinkers tend to athiesm, but that doesn't mean people who were raised in an athiestic household are automatically in this category. Especially living in this, one of the most overtly religious countries in the industrialized world, many who grew up without faith and are uncomfortable with a definite end to their life and to the lives of their loved ones will seek out 'answers' which are only found in religion. I would suspect the retention rates are much higher in more secularized countries like in Europe.
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Sulla
Social pressure in the U.S. drives children of atheists away from atheism? I only have my personal experience, of course, but since I left the JWs I have never felt the slightest pressure to become religious from any person I ever met. In the last decade, I wonder if anyone has a personal experience where they felt like there was social pressure placed on them to convert away from atheism.
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NewChapter
To answer Sulla: Yes. I get it from every corner. Perhaps I am more sensitive to it than you because you are a believer. Ah, but let someone figure out that you are not a believer, and the game is on. I would think, as a critical thinker, you know that your experience would be very different from my experience. Nobody needs to preach to you, because you already believe.
In highschool (wasn't an atheist at the time) I was constantly invited to bible studies and youth groups. I went. Why not? Bike rides, camping, dances---and preaching. Would I prevent my child from attending these things if she wanted to? No. Could she be sucked into the whole believing thing? I suppose. My goal is not to "retain" her, but to give her the critical thinking skills she needs as she experiments with the world and different viewpoints. I would not freak if she got involved in something (excluding JW style religions) because I know she has what is needed to free herself of such when that time should come for her.
At least I know she will never go Catholic or fundamentalist. As far as I'm concerned, that's a victory as I would never want her to carry such a ridiculous load.
Believers are concerned about retention. They don't want their children to question their beliefs, and they want them to share such beliefs. I as an atheist am more concerned with critical thinking. I expect my view to be tested and hope she has the skills to do so.
We are not organized, we don't have sunday schools for our children, we don't take statistics, we don't have membership rolls, we are not part of a religion. The idea of retention seems silly to me. It falls into black and white religious thinking----one must be defined as to their relationship to a god, and there is an inability to understand the world and people outside of this structure.
NC
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tec
I absolutely do want my children to question... everything!
How else does a person keep from getting sucked into something. I want them to be able to think for themselves, and draw their own conclusions, and i encourage both of these things.
And I am a believer.
Do I want them to know Christ? I do, for the same peace and joy and strength this gives to me. But their path is their own and I would not attempt to force them onto mine.
Peace,
tammy