Question for Atheists

by RWC 72 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  RWC

  Christians who believe in the Bible and the teachings of Christ use that as a moral core and code of conduct. For those who don't believe in God, where do you get your sense of moral right and wrong? What is your moral foundation? And why?
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  RunningMan

  We get our moral code from the same place that the Bible writers did - we make it up. And, if you would care to take a look at the attached summary of Bible laws and principles, you will see that we could hardly do any worse than the Bible:

  What things are legal in the Bible:

  Slavery - Exodus 21 outlines the laws for ownership and trading of slaves. A man could sell his daughter to pay off a debt. You could beat your slave, almost to the point of death. Foreign slaves could be kept forever and willed to your descendants, whereas Hebrew slaves could only be kept for a maximum of seven years, although there were exceptions to this policy. Most of the faithful men of old had slaves.

  Incest - For those of you who will not want to believe this, here are the words of Abraham himself: ‘“Besides she is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.”’ (Genesis 20:12) So, Abraham and Sarah were half siblings, as well as a married couple. And let’s not forget righteous Lot, who knocked up both of his daughters. By the way, doesn’t it seem a little strange that God would outlaw incest, and then create a situation where incest is mandatory? Adam and Eve’s children and Noah’s grandchildren had no choice but to marry their siblings and cousins.

  Genocide - In Dueteronomy chapter 7, God commands the Isrealites to ‘utterly destroy’ seven nations that were greater and mightier than they were. Joshua says that they did exactly as commanded. According to Joshua’s census, the Isrealites numbered approximately 2.5 million. So, if the Bible is to be believed, the Hebrews extinguished seven nations numbering more than 17.5 million persons.
  As well, there were several incidental holocausts along the way, such as the Midianites. In this case, the meek Moses became upset because the Israelites killed only the men, allowing the women and children to live. So, they went back and finished the job. When God commanded the Israelites to destroy the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15), he told them to kill, not only the men, women, and infants, but even the animals. Based on these boasts, Jehovah makes Hitler look like a small time thug.

  Polygamy - This one doesn't even require much backup. The list of faithful men of old who had multiple wives is virtually endless - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and many, many more. In addition to taking multiple wives, most of these men also took concubines, which are basically mistresses. This leads me into the next category.

  Fornication - Most moral codes frown on this, but not the Bible. Numerous faithful men of old had concubines. Many of them impregnated their slaves. Lot, who was married, had sex with his daughters. Judah and Samson hired prostitutes.

  Now, it seems to me that the Bible says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery". But, for some reason, this does not appear to include having multiple wives, keeping mistresses, visiting prostitutes, having your run of the slave girls, or selling your wife/sister to another man at a profit. So, how do you break this command?

  Murder - Now, to be fair, the Bible does outlaw murder. However, it doesn't seem to enforce the penalty evenly. Moses killed an Egyptian, and Samson killed thirty innocent people, so that he could steal their clothes. Both of these men retained God's approval and blessing.

  What things are illegal:

  * The eating of fat is prohibited forever. (Lev 3:17)
  * You cannot round the corners of your beard or the hair on your temples. (Lev 19:27)
  * Witches should be killed. (Ex 22:18)
  * The congregation was to be a bastard free zone. The Bible was so dead set against bastards that their children, even to the tenth generation, could not enter the assembly of the Lord. (Duet 23:2) This is in keeping with God’s principle of punishing children for the wrongdoings of their parents.
  * Handicapped people could not approach God. Their presence would profane his sanctuary. (Lev 21:16-23) This scripture single-handedly offends almost every category of handicapped persons you can name. The blind, lame, injured, hunchbacks and dwarfs are specifically named. If anyone is left out, the catchall phrase “anyone with a blemish” is thrown in to cover them. I guess in Israel, the handicapped parking stalls were at the far end of the parking lot.
  * Entrance into the assembly of the Lord was granted only to those with complete testicles (Duet 23:1) Now, I will admit that keeping one’s testicles in tact is a pursuit worthy of some attention, but I have to ask: What went on in the “assembly of the Lord” that required a complete and full set of testicles? And, since testicles are usually not on display, was there someone at the gate assigned to check?
  * Anyone working on the Sabbath is to be killed. (Ex 35:2) This law was to protect the sanctity of Sunday afternoon football. Unfortunately, any player that touched the ball would have to be killed after the game, because he had touched a dead pig. (Lev 11:7,8) That would certainly make it easier to play defense.
  * Menstruating women and everything they touch are unclean. The only cure for this uncleanness was for the priest to kill a couple of pigeons. (Lev 15:19-30) What could be more logical?
  * If a couple has sex during the woman’s period, the two are to be cut off from their people. (Lev 20:18) Once again, how would anyone know that this had happened? The couple is obviously not going to tell. Maybe the genital inspector from the temple made house calls.
  * Women were officially second class citizens. They were considered possessions that were owned, (Prov 12:4) and were officially subordinate (1 Cor 14:33,34).
  * Homosexual men were to be executed. (Lev 20:13) No mention is made of homosexual women.
  * If a woman grabs a man’s privates during a fight, her hand is to be cut off. (Duet 25:11,12) Now, is it really necessary to have this law on the books? You get the impression that the person who was writing the laws had recently experienced this and was still a little pissed off.
  * False prophets are to be killed by their own parents. (Zech 13:3)
  * Stubborn children were to be stoned, and the stoning was to be instigated by their parents. (Duet 21:18-21)

  Principles of Bible Justice:

  Principle #1: Sinners should be killed.
  By the way, when Cain killed 25% of the world’s population, why didn’t God give him the death penalty?

  Principle #2: It doesn’t matter if the infraction is small, kill them anyway.
  Don’t worry about proportions. For example, consider the case of Adam. For eating a piece of fruit, which is a violation on par with a parking ticket, the entire human race was sentenced to death. Of course, Adam himself was severely penalized by being forced to die of natural causes at the age of 950.

  Principle #3: If you can’t kill the sinner, kill his children.
  "The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness... but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation." - Exodus 34:6,7

  Principle #4: If you can’t kill the sinner or his children, kill someone else - anyone.
  Consider the occasion when King David took a census. (1 Chronicles 21) As a result of this minor infraction, seventy thousand innocent people where murdered by God.
  
  Principle #5: Every now and then, punish someone innocent.
  Jehu followed God's instructions to the letter, yet was later punished for committing the murders that God told him to commit. Talk about a no-win situation.

  Principle #6: The only sure way to make up for a sin is to kill an innocent animal, or if it’s a really big sin, an innocent human.
  There was a prescription for every transgression and it usually ended with some poor animal being sacrificed - unless you ate some forbidden fruit, then only the sacrifice a perfect human would suffice.

  Principle #7: Even young children can be tried in adult court, and killed for minor infractions.
  Children could be stoned for stubbornness - Dueteronomy 21:18,21.
  Elisha arranged for the murder of forty-two children who insulted him - 2 kings 2:23-25
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  patio34

  Hi RWC,

  Having been pretty much an atheist for only the past year or so, this is a question i've struggled with and still am. My decision wasn't taken lightly however; really, it wasn't even a decision. It was my research into the history of the Bible and religion that led to being an atheist. So, it was really a process of elimination and that was what was left. However, i digress from your question.

  For now, it seems to me, that i always was pretty much a moral person, before, during the 28 years as a JW, and after. According to one theory i read (can't remember now), people generally do bring their own morality to their religion. The example was given of Gandhi and his crediting his holy book, which was loaded with violent instances, but he focused on the non-violent ones. He was bringing his own standards to his religion.

  Bible-believers have done this also. The Bible has many instances of so-called good, but violent, people: Samson, David, Saul, Moses, etc. The NT does focus on peaceful behavior it seems, but stresses the violent nature of God, what with Revelation and Armageddon. Plus, the non-war belief of the JWs is based on very loosely applied scriptures. Well, i'm digressing again.

  I guess i'm being defensive about religious persons' presumed reaction (based on my own past) to an atheist stating the he/she follows their own standards--and pretty much that of our culture. My point is that pretty much everyone else does too, regardless of their beliefs.

  Englishman has a thread started on spirituality of even an atheist that is very interesting. When i have more time, i'll post to that.

  That's all for now, folks, as i'm off to work! Ha! Coincidentally, i'm attending a seminar on 'Ethics in the Workplace" by Michael Josephson, so i guess that will be a good start on ethics!

  Thanks for asking!
  Pat

  

  WTBS: Quit peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
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  Will Power

  There is an excellent book about 3/4 in. thick called
  "Can Man Be Good Without God?"
  written by a doctor from Toronto.
  Good info - scientific and all
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  Satanus

  Atheists, lacking a genocidal, easily angered god, who is just waiting for the right moment to kill all the faithless, are able to go by their natural feelings. Actually, i think that the ratio of good to bad atheists compared to the ratio of good to bad chritians may be similar. There could be other factors involved in the level of their values.

  SS
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  larc

  RWC,

  Why do Christians have to go to church all the time and read the Bible every chance they get to be moral? Is there some kind of unerlying decadence that you are constantly fighting against. My grand parents on both sides of my family never went to church and they were very moral people.
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  Farkel

  : We get our moral code from the same place that the Bible writers did - we make it up.

  ROFLMAO!!! How true!

  Farkel
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  Abaddon

  An atheist's moral code is normally a product of the consensus of opinon of the culture they come from.

  As most cultures have points of agreement regarding morals (don't kill, don't steal), most atheists find such activities wrong. Some times the morals of an atheist are a product of their culture's morals in the sense of being a reaction against their society, perhaps due to a perceived injustice.

  They can also be based on abstract principles (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness)

  Funnily enough, most religious morals are a product of the morals of the society that produced them, so essentially atheists and theists get their morals the same way, except the theists might have been written down a long time ago... which is also the case with atheists...

  No difference RWC, just different books and different beliefs, but no difference...

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
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  expatbrit

  RWC:

  Here's a post I made a while ago which includes my current view of how humans arrive at a moral code: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21395&site=3

  Expatbrit
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  teenyuck

  flower brought up this issue back in mid-February.

  The thread might give you insight to many posters here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21607&site=3

  I pretty much said my thoughts here...not much changed.