Question for Atheists

by RWC 72 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • RWC
    RWC

    Thank you for your responses. Some thoughts in reply:

    Running Man: I noticed that you fail to quote any of the New Testament in your post. You do qoute from the old testament in part but you fail to put these events in context, nor do you mention the consequences of the behavior that some of the men you mention engaged in. David for example paid a huge price for his sins. You also fail to mention the biggest principle of the Christian faith and that is forgiveness for our sins by the same God who you call cruel.

    It seems that without a moral code that is based on any standard that an aethist will develop a personal moral code that seems right for him. This of course leads to everyone doing what they want and telling everyone else to let them. If it is based upon culture alone, than if a culture allowed murder and rape without consequences you would have to say that that is alright. If everyone can do what they want, why would an aethist attempt to impose the morality of their culture on another culture, such as when the government imposes sanctions on another country for "human rights" violations. It would appear hypocritical for an aethist who has devloped his own moral code to support such an action.

    Larc, some folks may go to church in an attempt to stay moral, however I don't believe that is the reson the majority go. We go to worship our God, learn his word and fellowship with fellow believers.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon
    It seems that without a moral code that is based on any standard that an aethist will develop a personal moral code that seems right for him.

    RWC, you're ignoring what has been said; no one is really 'without a moral code that is based on any standard', unless they have some pathological condition, or have been raised in bell-jar You get a moral code from the society you grow up in and what you are exposed to. This is where you get your standard from, be you a Roman Catholic or an atheist.

    Obviously the standards are different in different societies, but the presence of religion in a society, even a Christian religion, is not a guarantee of their moral code being any better than that in a secular society.

    You say;

    If it is based upon culture alone, than if a culture allowed murder and rape without consequences you would have to say that that is alright
    For s start, what secular culture are you talking about here? There is no secular society which allows murder and rape without penalties. You statement is meaningless, as you could apply it to a theistic culture too;

    "If it is based upon religon alone, than if a religion allowed murder and rape without consequences you would have to say that that is alright."

    What about the Aztecs? They cut hearts of prisoners of wars out. Is that okay because it is religiously sanctioned? What a protection their religiously based moral code was! What about Roman Catholics? Was the moral code in the Bible any barrier to territorial wars, corruption, organised campaigns of forced conversion or genocide, inquisitions, murders and rapes, etc.?

    You are essentially saying that the fact a Christian's morals come from the Bible makes them better. Yet there is no proof of this. Look at prisons; plenty of religious people there!

    You also ignore the fact that there are fundamental human rights that are logically applicable to everyone. Read the Declaration of Independence and takle god out. That's a statement that was deliberately echoed when the UN drafted a consitution. Humans are held in the secular world to have equal rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is not a debatable right, but a fundamental human right. Thus your assertion;

    If everyone can do what they want, why would an aethist attempt to impose the morality of their culture on another culture, such as when the government imposes sanctions on another country for "human rights" violations. It would appear hypocritical for an aethist who has devloped his own moral code to support such an action.
    You are too keen to see atheists as amoral people who do what they want. It's downright insulting. Free yourself from such ridiculously unfounded religious dogma!

    Where has anyone said that anyone can do what they want with no limits? You keep doing this, be it in arguements about moral or about evolution; you set up something you disagree with, but it is either a misconception based upon your lack of scientific education, or a misconception based upon your bias against non-theist.

    Yes, you can do what you want, but you can't infringe upon the freedoms of another without giving them the rights to do the same to you, so you don't infringe others freedoms unless they are trying to infringe yours.

    These are obvious, fundamental parameters of human behaviour, and they don't need a god to think of them... do you seriously think Moses suddenly yelled "Thou shalt not kill? Good lord, what a wonderful idea! Why didn't anyone think of that before!"??

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    RWC: I can see by your replies to those who responded that your original question was not really an honest quest for information, but was rather a transparent attempt at drawing people into this discussion so that you could preach to them.

    Is the old testament not part of the Bible? Were the first 2/3 of the Bible merely the warm up for the almighty of the universe, being too imature to come up with a judicial code that most truly moral persons would not find embarassing?

    The tone of my original reply still stands - Jehovah is a big do-do head.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    RWC,

    It seems to me that, in asking your question, you have forgotten that its answer is contained in the Bible itself. In it we are told that God has created all people, including atheits, in such a way that they do not need any written code of law to distinguish right from wrong.

    In Romans 2:14 and 15 Paul said, "When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their own thoughts are alternately accusing or defending them."

  • RWC
    RWC

    Running Man, my attempt was sincere. My reply was what it was because I was suprised by the answers. I truly thought that there would have been more thought than people make up their moral code, or we base it upon the majority rules arguments. I apologize if that reply was considered preaching.

    Abaddon, your post raises an interesting point. We can do what we want as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. The ultimate question of course, is what is the baseline to determine where one person's rights end and another begins. Also, if that baseline is based upon nothing more than majority rules than it will change all of the time. For example for far to long we in the states allowed the majority to discriminate upon the minority simply because of the color of their skin. That didn't change because of the change in the majoroty, but because of the religious beliefs of a few that risked their lives.

    Do I believe that all atheists are amoral people? Of course not. Just like all religious people are not moral. But for a person that claims to be religious, the moral code that he claims to live by is outlined in the Bible so all can see where he falls short.

  • Xander
    Xander

    Although I don't follow Wiccan teachings, their 'rede' is actually a pretty good statement of morals (generally, it's applied to magick, but it works just as well in day to day life):

    "And it harm none, do as you will"

    Generally the 'infringing on other's rights' argument can be used to justify some pretty stupid laws. (IE., I want to sue someone for violating my 'right' to not have to see offensive artwork).

    Which is why I prefer the Wiccan Rede here. It's more specific.

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana
  • AlanF
    AlanF

    RunningMan said:

    : We get our moral code from the same place that the Bible writers did - we make it up.

    RWC said:

    : It seems that without a moral code that is based on any standard that an aethist will develop a personal moral code that seems right for him. This of course leads to everyone doing what they want and telling everyone else to let them.

    What do you think your God does, but make up his own moral code, RWC? If you object, it's obvious that God doesn't get his "moral code" from anyone else, so he must make up his own code just as "atheists" apparently do. And if you object to certain persons' making up their own moral code, then you should equally object to God's making up his own, seeing as how "man is made in God's image". Clearly this covers aChristian's comments about man having a built-in moral code -- where did it come from except that God made it up?

    Do keep in mind that one should be consistent in allowing who ought to make up moral codes and such.

    AlanF

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    RWC; "what is the baseline to determine where one person's rights end and another begins"

    Tangible harm. Easy. If a there is a consensus of opinion that an action infringes someones rights to the extent there is tangible harm, then it's 'wrong'.

    "Also, if that baseline is based upon nothing more than majority rules than it will change all of the time. For example for far to long we in the states allowed the majority to discriminate upon the minority simply because of the color of their skin. That didn't change because of the change in the majoroty, but because of the religious beliefs of a few that risked their lives."

    RWC, you don't mean to be offensive, but you are; "because of the religious beliefs of a few that risked their lives". So I suppose that no religous people supported the US's old race laws. Or Apartheid in South Africa? And that no atheists fought against racial discrimination? You are sooooooooooo biased!! I'm saying this with a smile, not with a frown and a wagging finger, as I really don't think you realise the massive presumptions you make at every turn with regard to theists and atheists.

    But to address your concern;

    "if that baseline is based upon nothing more than majority rules than it will change all of the time"

    Yup, it will. But murder and rape are unlikely to become acceptable again, and have almost always been social taboos to one extent or the other.

    As Martin Luther King said "The slow curve of humanity is toward justice". Terrible things - racial and sexual oppression for example - have been socially acceptable (and recall please this was in theistic societies who 'should have known better' as they had is all written down for them). But, over time, things are getting better.

    Now sexual and racial oppresion are widely rejected. And the baseline will continue to change; for example, look at sex.

    Fifty years ago sex before marriage was widely condemned, single parenthood a shame, and homosexuality a perversion. Now sex before marriage is common, single parenthood is single parenthood, and homosexuality is widely considered no more an indication of someones goodness or badness than their hairstyle.

    Of course, if you are taking your morals from a bronze-age goatherd, and have to take his condemnation of sex before marriage and homosexuality (if that's what is was), then you cannot adjust your morals to a modern world which realises that, scientifically speaking, homosexuality is something quite natural, and that sex before marriage is okay as it doesn't have to result in babies now, and that women are not chattel anymore, so treating them like that is hardly appropriate.

    So, the fact that morals can and do change is a GOOD thing; do you want to stone adulterers in the local Mall each Saturday? Or throw out all the cotton-polyester blend clothes you have?

    "But for a person that claims to be religious, the moral code that he claims to live by is outlined in the Bible so all can see where he falls short."

    Again, you presume that 'religious' people regard the 'Bible' as the be all and end all. What about Hindus, Seikhs, Muslims, Buhddists? You know, the majority of the world population? And has the fact the Bible is written doen stopped people who claim to follow it breaking those commandments? And isn't it just as possible to point out, using secular laws, where someone has done wrong?

    Xander; Oh, I agree; people have rights, but they also have the right to get over it. Thus people whimpering because they don't like the Mapplethorpe with the bullwhip coming out of a guy's ass can get a sense of perspective. I alsways love it; you get people who will defend a bigot's rights to say what they believe who will complain about bad language...!

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • RWC
    RWC

    Abaddon, I see your point. Of course non religious people were involved in the fight against discrimination and sadly those who claimed to be religious fought to allow it.

    Of course morals change over time. But I would not agree that our morals are better now than in the past in the same respect you claim. For example, in the U.S. the divorce rate is now one in three in secular marriages. However, marriages that are Christian based where the coouple attend church reqularly, study the Bible, and actively pray, the divorce rate is one in a thousand.

    Is the Bible the only moral code? Of course not. But those who are Buddists, Hindus etc.. have their own religiously based code to live by. It is not based upon their individual moral beliefs.

    Laws and tangible harm are are good start, but people can act immorally without breaking any laws or causing tangible harm.

    And am I biased? Of course I am!

  • peaceloveharmony
    peaceloveharmony

    rwc

    However, marriages that are Christian based where the coouple attend church reqularly, study the Bible, and actively pray, the divorce rate is one in a thousand.

    can you site your source please?

    thanks

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit