Pascal's Wager, Best Answer I Have Heard (page 3)

I imagine that's because the Bible teaches believers that haughtiness and arrogance, esp that of men (with a puffed head) is such a sin, esp when making a declarative statement such as "there is no God". That's a DOUBLE sin to a Xian, and there's no way you're going to like that.

It means he triggered your "zone alarm" of your personal "virus scan" for unacceptable ideation; it's time to consider what if he IS right, and perhaps the greater arrogance is to condemn others as arrogant, when they're actually correct?

binadub

As I understand the wager, if you believe in God and there is no God, you'll die content in your belief and never know you were wrong.

This fellow was evidently not a JW/exJW, because his reasoning is against the fundamentalist "all-loving, omnipotent" God, which imo is not biblical.

Also, anyone who has been a JW should have the knowledge to refute the orthodox doctrines of "hell" and "soul" as not being biblical (but I realize, many did not, especially born-ins).

So, if you don't believe in God, and there is no God, you will never know that you were right.

If you don't believe in God, and there is a God, you will either never know you were wrong

OR

you will be resurrected with "the rest of the dead" for judgment, and you will be judged out of the scrolls according to your works/deeds/what you have done (Rev. 20:12-13--depending on the translation); not according to your beliefs.
So yes, the scripture agrees with the speaker, it will be fair.

~Binadub

leavingwt

Ros: The possibilities are infinite. You could believe in the wrong God, for instance. Then upon, death, realize that you're royally screwed, because she is in fact not a nice god at all.

WinstonSmith

My point is that people are more likely to listen and be moved by someone that they think is trying to help them rather than prove them wrong. This has nothing to do with arrogance. It has everything to do with being human. No matter how wrong we might be about something, I'm sure all of us would prefer to be told in a nice way that we are wrong, and why. No-one likes to be spoken to like they are stupid. No-one likes to be talked down to. This applies to athiests, Christians, the non-religious - everyone.

botchtowersociety

And LeavingWT exposes some of the fatal assumptions underlying Pascal's Wager. It only works for a particular kind of God. Not only does it assumesome sort of benevolent, personally involved God, it also assumes the existence of an afterlife. In the range of possibilities, you could have the former but not the latter.

King Solomon

If you don't believe in God, and there is a God, you will either never know you were wrong

OR

you will be resurrected with "the rest of the dead" for judgment, and you will be judged out of the scrolls according to your works/deeds/what you have done (Rev. 20:12-13--depending on the translation); not according to your beliefs.
So yes, the scripture agrees with the speaker, it will be fair.

I guess it matters if you're talking about if someone dies BEFORE Armageddon. Of course, you know that the JW doctrine is that anyone who is witnessed to, but fails to avail themselves of "The Truth" WILL be killed in Armageddon for an eternity, with no do-overs, no 2nd chances.

That's why I modified the Pascal's wager thinking into a scenario that's more applicable to JWs.

BTW, that reminds me of a question:

I remember the story saying was that EVERYONE who died before Armageddon would be resurrected to live 1,000 yrs in the New System, and then be judged. However, I saw a reference in some literature I looked at saying that you "must be remembered" by YHWH to be resurrected: is that a change in policy that is trying to close the loophole of dying before Armageddon so as to gate-crash into the New System?

Hey, wait a minute: where's Tammy? TEC?

There's Tammy's reference of those who will be misled by Satan to seek another way to take the "Kingdom by Force", using force to commit suicide to get in the New System? So per Jesus, don't be misled: it won't work!!!

King Solomon

My point is that people are more likely to listen and be moved by someone that they think is trying to help them rather than prove them wrong. This has nothing to do with arrogance. It has everything to do with being human. No matter how wrong we might be about something, I'm sure all of us would prefer to be told in a nice way that we are wrong, and why. No-one likes to be spoken to like they are stupid. No-one likes to be talked down to. This applies to athiests, Christians, the non-religious - everyone.

While I don't disagree with you (I mean, how could I argue to defend anyone's being a jerk, LOL!), I'd like to believe that for some people, the ultimate criteria to be used is not the cosmetic superficialities, politeness, social skills, but in fact, THE TRUTH itself. It's like in picking a president, I don't want a down-to-earth candidate who I'd like to have a beer with: I want someone who gets the job done!

I know people who disregard anything that Richard Dawkins says, as they point out how pompous the guy is (the British accent doesn't help). But the fact is, I've known people who truly WERE brilliant, and knew they were: they had little tolerance for dim-wits who drained them of their energy, and didn't put up with it. So anyone who dismisses a Richard Dawkins MAY do so, but it's only to their own detriment: the guy has forgotten more about biology than they'll EVER hope to learn.

WinstonSmith

I quite agree KS. It would indeed be a wonderful thing if the truth about any subject could be used to end an argument. Our experiences in life warp our view of truth though. A fact doesn't change, but our view or understanding of it does. When they worked out that the earth was not the center of the universe, it didn't suddenly not become the center if the universe, our greater understanding of it meant we now saw it in the right place.

I have seen people be proved completely wrong but still defend their defenseless position because they didn't want to give in and be seen to 'lose' to someone they perceived as cocky.

I know some people that will look at this video and may lean toward being swayed but as soon as they hear those final words, the wall will go up. For them those final words will negate everything that came before them, no matter how sound it was.

It is an excellent video, I just think from a tactical point of view, the warm appeal to reason will jar to a halt for some people, like a needle being bumped off a record player, on hearing his closing statement.

King Solomon

It is an excellent video, I just think from a tactical point of view, the warm appeal to reason will jar to a halt for some people, like a needle being bumped off a record player, on hearing his closing statement.

Yeah, I can't really disagree: in business, the key is to be all things to all people. As the old saying goes, "Sincerity: once you learn to fake that, you've got it made!!" The last thing you want to do is ALIENATE customers for no good reason, when there's money on the line. If people don't learn to control their egos out of common-place decency, then they usually get the point via their pocketbook, LOL!

Here, though, it's a little different: at least for me post-JW, after being spoon-fed "The Truth", I developed a strong distaste for fake anything, including the use of false names (i.e. calling each other "friends", or "brothers", etc).

It's one thing when people put on airs as part of normal business etiquette, but quite another when they do so in the name of "selling" their religion. I prefer my truths unfiltered, straight-on-the-rocks.

However, it's good to recall the Greeks executed Socrates, primarily for being a pesky old curmudgeonly dude who asked a few too many questions... Times may have changed, but people haven't.

Pascal's Wager, Best Answer I Have Heard

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