Trying to talk to my mom - really discouraged, need help.

by rather be in hades 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    I think you're still overthinking it, to be honest.

    Most people aren't impressed by facts and figures, etc.

    I'd recommend focusing on the basic theological questions, even using the account of A&E, Noah's Ark, Job, Jonah, etc. as examples. Someone just posted their episode reasoning from Jonah's tale, and I pointed out the examples where God behaves inconsistently thoughout the Bible; a hallmark of men's writing.

    But even there, not knowing ANYTHING about her family circumstances, it may be too late for her, or not worth sacrificing a comfortable life-style for a truth that has no practical value to her (if it means losing what JW friends she has, a spouse, etc). I've decided it's too late for some JW family members: they made their beds, so they must sleep in them. You can only control your own actions, not others.

    BTW, it sounds like it wasn't ALL bad, and all a waste! Remember the good times, too: like Gate F at Qualcomm. That wouldn't be a memory if you hadn't been in, right? :)

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    LOL Gate F would have been a lot more enjoyable if I was one of the cool witnesses instead of one of the ones standing outside it looking in hahaha.

    Oh well. Either way, the sisters did dress quite nicely in the Southern California sun.

    I have thought abot going after basic biblical teachings. I opted against it for some reason and I'm not sure why. I think I figured that at this point, she's too attached to the bible as god's word. to her, it's infallible and goes before all else. I think I figured it'd be easier to go after the craziness in the WTBTS first. Maybe it would be easier to talk about Jonah, but I have a feeling she's going to pull the, 'It's a miracle!!!' line out and I'm not sure how to counteract that.

    Actually, if I had money, I'd build a tank and offer $1,000,000 to anyone who walks across the tank of water with only divine intervention. I'd also charge $1.00 per try. Maybe set this up in a nice touristy place that's hot with a beach nearby so people will want a dunk in the pool...

    Without that tank, I'm left with: it's a miracle and god stopped doing them nowadays nanner nanner nanner.

    I coud go the Genesis route and attack creation. There's too much evidence for evolution to call it a swag or even a properly formulated theory. It's an easily proven fact. The Noah's Ark is a good one too. It's absolutely impossible, bt I'm afraid of the miracle nonsense.

    Thanks for the sggestions though. I'm definitely gonna think about the creation aspect. I think I'd tell my mom to just pretend ntil she's comfortable with leaving, if it ever got to that point. I thoght about that aspect and even though she's still young and I'd bet my stepfather would leave it with her, most of their friends are jws. Leaving for me in my 20s when things are already in flux in life is one thing, but when you're in your 40s, it's entirely different. I'd caution her to take her time...if she ever saw the light. My one isse would be for her to make sure she puts reality in front of fantasy. That she'd take blood if she needed to, or what have you.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Don't attack anything. It'll just drive her further in.

    You need lessons on sneaking ideas past the goalie before you can make any points. The tactics that didn't work for you already, didn't work for a reason. You need to learn why, because every failure on your part makes her resolve stronger.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    "I coud go the Genesis route and attack creation. There's too much evidence for evolution to call it a swag or even a properly formulated theory. It's an easily proven fact. The Noah's Ark is a good one too. It's absolutely impossible, bt I'm afraid of the miracle nonsense."

    Ah, yes, Those three little words that brushes away 3,000 yrs of scientific evidence: God Did It!

    Yeah, I think you should consider a more emotional, less technical-based approach. More on the inhumanity, amorality depicted thru out the OT. I posted a link to a YouTube video called "what Jesus would NOT do" by NonStamp Collector. He has a lot of great, creative videos which highlight the silliness of it all. Might give you ideas, as well?

    And remember: it takes time for people to enter the truth, and it takes time for them to lose their faith, too. It's like diving: not good to ascend too quick. As they'll only get painful bends.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    i'm not exactly trying to sneak them past.

    the main idea is for me to get things off my chest. for me to be able to tell her in no ncertain terms, 'this shit fucked me up.'

    that is 99% of my goal. to tell her, she raised me in a cult.

    i would, however, like to be able to say it in a way that maximizes the potential that she breaks out of it withot me having to go the bible study route. i REALLY don't want to have to drag this out, though i recognize that i most likely will, hence me thinking of going the 'well yu can look at it like it's a bible stud/count your time! hehehehe' route.

    i'm looking for that improbable best of both worlds. the fast method. i know it doesn't exist, bt i would like to brainstorm a way to break their logic quickly, or at least in a way that lets us start strong on the way to breaking loved ones out of this nonsense.

    i don't have the cult mind control book and would love to get it. unfortnately, that's not going to happen anytime soon and i do believe the time for me to say tough things to my mother before she gets used to being able to talk to me whenever will close before i can get to the book. before this month, i litereally refused any contact with her since october of last year and i know that hurt her. it hurt me. especially since my grandmother passed away in january and we have yet to talk about that.

    honestly it bothers me more than i let on. my grandmother died in january and i was so disconnected from my family that they didn't even tell me ntil the next day. they tell everyone my grandmother was apparently practically comatose and everyone got to pay their last respects but me. even though i'm on the other side of the country i wanted to tell her i loved her before she pased away. even though she might not have understood, even if it was only over the phone. i've been in a dark place for years. i was in sch a dark place and i retreated further and further away from my family trying to become something new. to start afresh. as though the old me, the jehovah's witness me, never existed. i've spent years frustrated trying to explain to my aunt that i'm not depressed, that the medication NEVER helped me. not one bit. i always woke up feeling awful no matter how high the dosage, no matter how long i took them. i was simply raised in a cult and all of a sudden plopped into the middle of a reality that i had no idea how to process, how to move, or live within. all those years of torment praying to god for friends. young ones in my hall that i could be friends with, to have a group to be around. that pain was pointless. there was no jehovah. i might as well have been praying to ren and stimpy. i lost my chance to say my last words to my grandmother because of all of this craziness. i cannot imagine that i would have developed in this way without the influuences of the jehovah's witnesses. the bond i had with her before the witnesses was incredible. after the witnesses, it got to the point where we couldn't communicate all that well. now think about this. how many children in multilingual households where a family member barely speaks any english, cannot speak the other language in the house? it's virtually unheard of bt i lost my ability because i wasn't around my grandmother all that mch anymore. some of that is natural. but the way i went was too far.

    i was a stupid child. by that, i mean i did stpid things. like climbing trees dangerously high. dangerously high to the point that even as an 8 year old i would think, 'this is kinda stupid, i shold probably not keep going.' of course i would keep going until panic wold almost set in. this being sothern california, the trees weren't nearly as sturdy as the ones in goergia, those were some good trees. now, perhaps this is silly, but i shudder to think that if i fell from one of those trees and needed a couple pints of blood to save my life, i shudder to think that my mother would have let me die. and yet here i am, having realized it's all a crock of shit, i cannot believe, that i would have agreed with her then.

    these talks between me and her are all about me. it's for my benefit. i'm juust looking for an off the wall, theoretically maybe this will work, method while still leaving myself some wiggle room for future conversations.

    for sre, i know not to be confrontational and direct. most of the time i'll be asking questions and the only doctrine i would consider debating has to do with proven failed prohecies. i would like some help developing a way to break the logical fallacy of the perfect organization, run by a perfect god, printing erroneous bs which is ok because they are infallible men. that one blows my mind. why in the fuck did i believe that? how does that work? lol.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    thanks king solomon.

    i'll definitely be looking for nonstamp collector.

    i just did

    http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector

    if that's not one of the fnniest thing's i've ever seen in my life...i also like the guy who made the bible stories with legos. those are hilarious.

    ok so i've been throwing this situation and i'm really starting to think about just hammering 1914/607, 1914/giza (seriously...wtf? the great pyramid? and he's god's mouthpiece), i'll hammer her on the tacoma dome, malawi/mexico/passports and the un situation. i'll work into the conversation something abot harold camping+false predictions+his apparent change after his screw ups and how similar that was to the witnesses in 1914, 1925 and 1975. false prophecies + child molestations (conti, the san diego elder and the jesus cano from bethel incident) and ultimately hayden covington's admission in court that promulgating false prophecy in unity is more important than being right.

    maybe i don't have go into minute detail, but i'm really thinking i should at least mention them to whet her appetite to know more. i like the idea of appealing to emotion, humanity, etc.

    ok so this is how i'm thinking of broaching this:

    ------------------------------

    mom, i'm curious, have you ever wondered how xxxxxxxx, yyyyyyyy and myself could all leave? xxxxxxx was well known and highly thought of by so many people all over the district. remember how he was invited to the dominican republic to pioneer for a few months? or how he was giving great pblic talks, was constantly out in field service, etc? heck he even got ME into early morning witnessing seemingly every day of the week. now he's gone, and as you say...an apostate. why? what about yyyyyy, an elder's son, also highly thought of, was making all sorts of advancement, etc...yet now look at him. have you ever wondered why he left? mind you, that year yyyyyy and i both pioneered, i dropped out most of the way through the year, yet he didn't. he went on to pioneer school and now...he's an apostate. why? then there's me. i might not have liked it, but i put my head down and i did the work. think of all those times i woke up early when i didn't have to, in irder to drop you off at work so i could use the car to go early morning witnessing. or all those times that i'd leave you at home on the weekends when i'd take out the car to go out in field service? i sacrificed a lot, i never complained, have you ever wondered why i left? you cannot say i didn't believe. if i didn't believe, i would have left ages ago. if i didn't believe, i would have pt up a huge stinker over after school sports, after school activities, hanging out with the worldly kids and all that. the only reason i stayed so long is because i truly believe and yet i left. for a believer to leave, that is tantamount to saying that everlasting nothingness is better than staying. does that make sense to you that the three of us wold go this route?

    //chances are she might say no. if she were to say yes, i'd have an INCREDIBLY easy opening as to going over the scandals i mentioned above.

    //if she says no, then i'll respond in this manner:

    i faithfully believed and i faithfully preached. i admit that i wasn't happy as a witness, but i believed so emphatically, that i continued going out in service faithfully preaching.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    obviously i didn't talk to my mom this past night. i should have gone out to see the dark knight rises :P i'm not finished with my thoughts and response, but i dunno if i like what i wrote, and i'm drawing a blank as to the right response if my mom says no. i'm thinking of appealing to emotion by saying that this discussion needs to take place, that even though she might not understand why i left, she needs to hear it because it explains why i have been hurting, why i have been depressed, why i tried to kill myself.

    maybe i'll even go so far as to say that if she truly loved me, if she truly cared about me, then she'd listen to what i have to say. that i'm not trying to get her out of it at all. i can see that she's happy and who knows, maybe if my questions are answered, i'll go back to it. i'd rather live forever than not, i'd rather spend eternity with my family than without. maybe i can appeal to her emotion in that manner?

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    I think you're moving in the right direction by moving away from the fact/figures, and openly speaking from your "heart" (hearts don't carry emotions; our brain does).

    For me, the main thing I NEVER got an answer to is the theodicy question: why does God allow evil to continue? OR, where did evil come from? If God made everything, including Satan, why did he make an imperfect angel. He made men with brains, and evil is a thought: God needs to man up (not that I believe in God(s), or any other supernatural beings). Evil is NOT EXTERNAL to us: it's all in our perception, a label we put on things.

    BTW, you might want to check out a few vids relating to Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood: search YouTube for videos by user AdamSlowHandSmith, once called "Adam and Eve's Dear John Letter to God Almighty"

    In fact, that's what I did with MY Mom when I was 14 and had the same conversation: I asked her the big questions, she offered paltry excuses, and I'd shoot them down by questioning them until she was left with nothing else to offer. I kept asking questions that cannot be answered, and eventually SHE was crying, as she got it (and already knew it, too: most do, they just cannot admit it to themselves).

    Remember: it took years of indoctrination to get where she is, and don't feel the need for it to happen one session: my brother came thru, and it took about 6 months of reflecting, learning, reading, etc.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Another video called "Ultimate Product Liability Lawsuit: Mankind vs God Almighty"

    BTW, NSC has a video on the biological impossibility of Noahs Ark: you like the other, this one is hilarious.

    BUt like I say, focusing on the intrinsic contradictory behavior of YWHW as depicted is powerful. Don't worry about having the "perfect" presentation: that's just the JW that still lives within you speaking. :)

    Don't be too hard on yourself, or have too many regrets over what you might've missed, and what might've been. Freedom comes from letting all those thoughts go, as ALL you really can control is your future, and future time spent worrying about the past is only that: time spent, wasted.

    Hopefully you're doing better with the depression: been there, done it. For me, diet, exercise, and sufficent sleep is CRITICAL to emotional state. Although we'd like to think otherwise, we ARE trapped in mortal bodies, and our emotion status is dependent on our physical state.

    Take care!

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    lol had your own mom crying! shame! lol. that's an interesting idea though...the big questions. i dunno how to go with that.

    why does god allow sffering?

    -he allows it for the time being to prove that we need him. that this is what mankind is without him and his way of proving his right to rule. soon jehovah will destroy the wicked and paradise will come for 1000 years and then blah blah blah.

    where do i attack from there? do i ask something like...why did my grandmother have to suffer the way she did? by the time she was nearing death...wouldn't she have known at that point that god was needed? wouldn't a more worthy testimony be jesus still being alive today as a perfect man giving testimony? if some man was genuinely curing the sick and giving free healthcare and could make christopher reeves walk and raising the dead...EVERYONE would worship this guy. if he was 2000 years old to boot? there's far less painful ways for god to get his point across, maybe i could point some of these out. maybe an illustration or asking her if that's how she'd treat me? archaeologically the idea is stupid anyway and wold be easily proven false if it wasn't for the miracle clause

    or was your line of questioning different? did you just puummel her with hard questions ranging from all sorts of unrelated topics? or did you needle her with one specific difficult sbject and dissect it?

    the jehovah's witness answer for satan is that he was perfect but chose to go his own route. it was not jehovah's fault. on a personal level, i would arge that we are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. sorta. i mean at the very least we know it's a dick move to kill another human right? that's not just a perception/label thing. i too never really understood the existence of evil. god is spposed to be the great engineer. no great engineer builds faulty eqiupment. if god is perfect, how can he have come up with sch a complete cluster fuck of a planet? actually that's kinda funny. if you think about it, he REALLY screwed the pooch on this one. and really early into it too. i mean, if 1000 years is but a day to jehovah, then his human creation lasted all of what? seconds?minutes? hours? that's inexcusable and god needs to be fired. if the shoddy design of the firestone tires/ford combination and the relatively few deaths that resulted from that got people fired and lawsuits filed...then shouldn't we get to fire god for literally killing something like 95% of all human population up to this point?

    i digress. thanks for letting me bounce ideas off you and for helping me think this one through.

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