Trying to talk to my mom - really discouraged, need help.

by rather be in hades 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    rather, Have you gotten any professional counselling? It's done me more good than I ever thought it would, and has helped me maintain the peace with family.

    I should start a thread about my own experience, but I suspect that the fact that you shunned your mom for a year is probably deeply ingrained in her mind. She's probably somehow happy that you're talking to her at all, regardless of the fact that it's bashing JWs. This is a place where professional counselling has helped me. I've achieved a level of inner peace without blasting and alienating my family that are still 'in'. I've been able to say enough to my parents, and can still bring things up, in order for them to respect the fact that I'm far better off having nothing to do with that religion. And I've been able to prove that we still have plenty to talk about and still love each other.

    The strongest point I think I've made with my mother is that their false promises of "armageddon soon" made a mess of my life and turned me into a depressed, suicidal, lifeless slave to fear and abuse. My mom used the same line:

    "They've made mistakes before, they used to smoke, celebrate Christmas, etc. The light gets brighter and they never said they were inspired by god."

    To which I AGREED! "Exactly, they're not inspired and they've made tons of mistakes before. So we have every reason to believe that they're still not inspired and are still making mistakes. We can't rely on what they say because they can 100% change their story in one sentance of a WT article and suddenly it's all my fault for ever having trusted and believed the mistakes they had been telling me to believe. Today's new light very quickly becomes tomorrow's old light, once time proves them wrong." Basically, mom understands that expecting me to trust them when they've only been proven untrustworthy makes me depressed and suicidal. The fact that I'm faded and very happy with the direction my life is going... and that we talk on the phone or I come visit every week, puts her in the position that she's not going to rock my boat.

    I've had much more successful conversations with Dad about the screwed up JW doctrines. Sometimes he brings things up that bother him, or I'll ask him about things. He will hear me out and can only agree with my facts. But he's old and change would be too hard for him to deal with. He does less than he used to in the cong, and is more interested in things like travelling, having fun, and helping people.

    In your OP, the first convo with your mom, you discussed a lot of older doctrine which most JWs are eager to ignore and dismiss. I've had a fair amount of success reasoning on the blood issue. Granted, I would still choose to avoid a blood transfusion, just as I would choose to avoid an organ transplant... unless either one were determined to be the only life-saving option. But on the issue of blood, one of the big historical facts that JW doctrine has ignored... and continues to ignore, is that the prohibition on eatting blood at the time of Noah and in the Mosaic Law was to show respect for the life of DEAD ANIMALS. When you really look at the context, it's clear that the prohibition would not relate to medical treatment using blood from live donors. It's a terrible misapplication and is the reason that Jews will accept blood transfusions. It's clearly understood from both a superficial reading, as well as deep analysis of the texts in the Hebrew scriptures that the prohibition on eating blood only applied to literally eating the blood of DEAD animals. Even at that, the law allowed the eating of unbled animals without serious penalty.

    Of course JWs are then taught to point to Acts 15:29 where the "governing body" in 49CE said "abstain from blood". The problem there is that the "governing body" also said "keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols" as the very first thing in their list. Just 6 years later, in 55CE, Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 10:25-30 that eating food sacrificed to idols was completely a conscience matter. He gives no instruction to track down the butcher and make 100% certain that the meat was never offered to idols. This makes it quite clear that what was stated in Acts 15:29 was no authoritarian decree handed down from God for eternal observance. We also have to remember that the original purpose of the meeting in Jerusalem was to decide on the circumcision issue. The bottom line of that meeting wasn't to say that 21st century Christians were to refuse medical treatment that would include blood transfusions or blood fractions. The meeting basically determined that removing the male foreskin wasn't required for a man to become a Christian. Yet, what was the very first thing related after that decision in Jerusalem? Paul circumcised Timothy.

    What happened in Jerusalem was hardly a decision of great authority by some "governing body". It's WT that tries to turn this little event into a foundation for autocratic authority. WT condemns the Pope for assuming divine authority as Christ's only earthly representative who makes decisions that the faithful should never doubt or question. Yet the same WT has a GB that assumes divine authority as God's only earthly representative who makes decisions that JWs must never doubt or question under penalty of disfellowshipping. Which brings us to yet another CURRENT procedure of JWs that is completely unscriptural... judicial committees and disfellowshipping are a gross misapplication of a few Bible texts.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    lol plenty of the counseling. it sorta helped, but like everything else in life, it's jst gotta click. eventually it did.so i finally feel like it's gonna be alright, i can do x,y,z and i'm gonna be ok. someone else said, and i wish i remember who, that they want to be an 'ex-ex'jw' and i thought that was beatifully put. i feel like i'm almost there...just gotta straighten things out with my mom.

    i'm not trying to blast jws. i'd like to get her out, but this whole thing is kinda hard to explain. the way my family treated me the past few years was terrible. i hated it, i hated how they viewed me. if that makes sense. and in part they'd be right, bt not for the right reason. none of them realized what was truly going on wiht me and ugh...i dnno...the final straw was this set of incidents and 'talks' with my mom last year and it was incredibly hurtful. felt betrayed, angry, etc and i couldn't say, "you raised me in a f*****cult you crazy *****and you were a terrible mother for raising me in this."

    i mean how do you say that? and to top it off, like i said, the rest of my family has been treating me in a similar manner despite not being jws. it's like interest. it accumlates. they don't understand how i was feeling, what i was thinking, what was going on with me and if i'm going to fix those relationships...it's important to me they understand. it's been an gly year but i think i needed it and the last few months have been different. i do feel a kind of peace. i've always told myself that she was a great mom who was misguided, but now i FEEL it. i look at my aunt who isn't a jw and yet still treated me weird and i listen to the way she talks to others and i came to realize, well she's just not good at being sympathetic. it wasn't until i started relating her own life experiences and she had to start defending herself that she kinda started understanding what was in my head. so i've got some peace, i'm trying to make more lol.

    the gb has done an amazing job in buying themselves outs. they should play baseball.

    i thought for sure the organ transplants and blood stff would trip her out. she LOVES medical stuff and seeing the society's stance on organ transplants when we were lamenting my grndmother not being able to have one which was essentially her death sentence. her response woke me up. i just don't think i can go down the blood route without blowing up. she's going to jst chalk it up to 'they make mistakes cuz they're not inspired' and that's gonna be like an itch that won't go away for me. i'm gonna have to reread some of those passages. never thought about it that way. actually kinda makes sense. i mean, we're talking basically about tribal people right? sounds kinda like the native americans. i'll never be able to argue that though. she'd simply dismiss me as not knowing for sure.

    it'd be nice if god coulda written the bible a lil more clearly ;)

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    I think you just gave her stuff to think about... but like overload info it will eventually fade and not matter.... (that's why meetings are drilled in their heads)

    Anyways what I found truly affective is just being sensere from the heart... explain your worries but I suggest making it about us, we, and family! How important it is to you! Keep it real... I think you gave her enough to think about as far as JW stuff... make it about you and her.

    If you focus on that and give her the space and time she needs... she may come around.

    This info was for you... and with you finding the info you did, let her do the same. It just comes down to their personal conscience.

    Keep all this info though, it so good you did all this, because when she makes a comment to you, you can use this to tactifully prove your point.

    Right now what truely proves your "right" will be your actions, are you happy? are you living a healthy and good life? are you doing what you dreamed and what you always wanted to achieve? Here's where you can be seen as proof that there is life beyond the organization.

    I share my feelings all the time with my mom and try and incourage her... showing her and sharing with her how I feel God has helped me find true happiness. That's what our mothers truly want is to see thier childern happy.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Billy said:

    But on the issue of blood, one of the big historical facts that JW doctrine has ignored... and continues to ignore, is that the prohibition on eatting blood at the time of Noah and in the Mosaic Law was to show respect for the life of DEAD ANIMALS. When you really look at the context, it's clear that the prohibition would not relate to medical treatment using blood from live donors. It's a terrible misapplication and is the reason that Jews will accept blood transfusions.

    Yup. It's just amazing to me that people are willing to die for the sake of nebulous wording that was written when blood transfusions, MRIs, organ transplants, etc weren't even possibly imagined! Genesis 9 gives a bail-out by saying that "God will demand an accounting", but apparently the "no blood" thing has been JW doctrine for so long that once again, there's more concern for the embarrassment that would result (saving face) rather than the deaths that will result (saving lives).

    Simply put, saving face > saving lives.

    As someone who understands evolution, it's sad, but it's also natural selection in action, i.e. some organisms take themselves (or their own offspring) out of the game.

    And I wonder how many of the seriously sick and elderly JWs actually want to die, and "no blood" policy gives them an excuse, a way out, without the shame of committing suicide.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    i'm disappointed and i don't think i can really look at her the same. part of me understands, i was like that to when i believed. but damn

    i never really knew my mom and i don't think i'll ever get that chance. she's going to breeze through 2014 without a blink.

    100 years since christ became king! it's jsut around the corner.

    being a jehovah's witness must be a lot like being a pittsburgh pirates fan. there's always next year

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    thank you everyone for the suggestions. i was hoping that she'd wake up, i'm afraid it's gonna be a long time. i'm impressed, i love my mom, but i never really thought of her as the most spiritual. i mean, she followed the doctrine and everything, but it's not like when i was growing up she'd always have her wt stdy prepared.

    when you get to a point where your only son could have been molested and you don't want to hear the truth, then you've overdosed on the blue pill.

    asking for a bible stdy sre as hell didn't work :P

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Rbih,

    Just remember: it took decades for her to get there, and change doesn't happen rapidly. People sometimes never change, and you'll just have to accept them as they are.... I've had to accept that for some of my family, its just too late.... And they'd have to figure it out on their own: I can't make them do it; no one can. There's no magic words, unfortunately.

    Remember, You didn't fail because she didn't accept it.

    Silver lining is, The bad things that COULD have happened DIDN'T, so maybe good to be thankful for her getting you this far, and focusing on whats ahead, and leave the past in the past. She's lucky to have you as a son, and mustve done something right, because you've got a good heart... :)

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    i know. i still can't help being disappointed. i've been telling myself for the past 30 minutes that i'm not disappointed, but i am. she barely let me get a word in edgewise. then i kept telling her not to take it like i'm blaming her, that i nderstand, but that's all she was doing.

    now i'm pissed. honestly i'm thinking of just going back to shnning her. i can't have an honest relationship with her. she can't let me open up at all. how can that be an honest relationship? i'll never feel right around her. it feels exactly like when i was 19 and going through all this for the first time.

    she tried her best bt the fact of the matter is this:

    she raised me in a cult because she didn't do due diligence. she raised me in a cult that completely screwed me up and if you raise a kid in a cult you are WRONG for doing so. she needed to hear it and it angers me that she thinks that she did everything right and that i screwed up my life on my own. i made bad decisions, i take responsibility for them, however i made those bad decisions off of her brainwashing.

    i tried to put the "WE all might have missed out on things like my baseball/whatever games" and the first thing out of her mouth was "well let me tell you i barely made any money as a single mother and blah blah blah" and that's not the fucking point at all. so if we couldn't afford it fine, but keeping me from making friends with the worldly kids? come on. or when i'm getting hit up by all of these schools bt i can't really talk to my mom and the elders are honding me about making a 'spiritually wise decision'? she doesn't realize how badly she completely fucked over the family with that. she comletely fcked me over with raising me in a cult like that. even if i took me 4 years to get my cachelors in engineering, i'd have finished it by 20. so that's 6 years of earnings with a degree in engineering i missed out on, and years of therapy i needed to have to compensate for that. i know on the one hand it can be said i needed to simply "get over it", bt anyone who has experienced that awful depth of depression knows that it's not something you can just get over. i hate to sound weak, but it was stronger than me at that time.

    i'm out, i'm done, i'm washing my hands of this. i jst hope that she's not going to needlessly pass away, or needlessly suffer for some buullshit lies from a corporation.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    All this means is that indoctrination cannot be broken down with a good argument, no matter how well crafted. Another approach is needed but perhaps you both need a breather for a little while.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    you're right, but i'm not bothering with another approach.

    her tone and actions on the phone really showed me her mentality and she kept repeating that she was happy

    all that tells me is that in her mind her happiness is more important than our relationship.

    her happiness was more important than me finally being able to open up to her

    her happiness was more important than me being able to ask simple questions

    her happiness was more important than my upbringing (i left a lot out of the conversation, it really did turn ugly in some parts)

    her happiness was more important than the fact she was bringing me to a place that actively hides child molestors and doesn't warn ppl

    her happiness was more important than my safety out in field service. not like she really knew who i was working with all those times i went out by myself to the meeting for field service when i was a minor

    her happiness was more important than the psychological damage raising me in an obvious cult withall sorts of lies and false teachings.

    it's sad, and i should've expected that with all the theocratic warfare bs, but now i 100% see how ingrained she is and it's not healthy for me to be around that. i've been happier the past few months without her in my life than i ever was with her in my life and it's time for me to realize i need to start thinking about numero uno. i'm happier without her. she's happy with her lies. maybe we'll be happier without each other.

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