Can You Believe this crap?

by Farkel 27 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Gozz,

    It's time to clear the cobwebs out of your head. I'll bring a wind tunnel.

    : But do you yourself suppose that the reckoning of time, accoring to the schedule of man matches that in the heavens? YOu may be a victim of falacious reasoning, for your words seem to convey the supposition that a decade of years is of great significance in the eyes of the almighty.

    A fuck up is a fuck up, Gozz. Time or no time. A 10 YEAR fuck up is still a 10 YEAR fuck up, regardless of how God views time.

    : A thousand years, the scriptures report, is like a day.

    That same book says that God laid the earth on its foundations (meaning the earth has foundations to "hold it up") and a man went to heaven in a flaming chariot and a woman had a pleasant little conversation with a snake who ironicly as snakes go, had not vocal chords! I got lotsa more Bible absurdities.

    : You can do the math. Just think about it! The number of years that is wonderful in your eyes pales into totally significance, even in the face of this equivalence; a period of less than 15 minutes by the ticking of the clock on this earthly plane. Yet yhere is a simple error even in that rapid computation, you obtain a figure that dramatically pales into the depths of insignificance... But beyond the realm of mathematical computation, you must now think about reasons why this might have happened.

    A fuck up is still a fuck up. The rest of your excusogetics is irrelevant.

    : Do you at all believe in the scriptures?

    No. Why? Because I've spent a great deal of time actually STUDYING them, that's why.

    : For, if you cannot bring yourself to appreciate the marvelous things in that book, then there will be an incapacitation in the understanding of other things.

    They said the same thing about Mao's "Little Red Book." So what? There are marvelous things in many books. Have you read the collective works of Charles Schultz, for example?

    : Do you seek knowledge? Are you ready to dig for it, or rove on the pages, just as the anointed have progressively done at this time of the end?

    According to a first-hand eyewitness, the "anointed" (translation: governing body) has NO scholars, they don't study the Bible, and they don't even read their own publications. They do virtually NO digging. They just dictate policy and re-hash the bullshit that's developed during the "rich heritage of Jehovah's organization," starting with that dreamer crackpot, Chuck Russell.

    : If you do, then you must experience great blessings yet untold.

    I did and I didn't. (Did study and dig and didn't get anything near "great blessings." What I got was more like "nauseated.")

    : You will experience a peace absent from these slippery, tracherous shores.

    Nice metaphor. What in-the-hell does it mean, though?

    Farkel

  • seven006
    seven006

    LDH,

    Playboy has articles?

    Dave

  • YoYoMama
    YoYoMama
    I cannot believe the Watchtower Printing Corporation had the balls to print this total pile of shit:

    The Watchtower Printing Corp did not print that message. It was a post I made and it was a conversation with YouKnow. And just because you say it's crap, does not mean that it is. You are entitled to your suspisions, thoughts, and conspiracy theories, but in the end it is only your opinion not a fact.

    Actually I believe that no matter what the WTBTS prints about the issue will not satisfy you because you will find any excuse in your demonized mind to attack them.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Gozz,

    Get real, will you? These are the same dorks who've vaporized people, cutting them off from a lifetime of family and friends, until and unless they come groveling back t them, for takinga dip in a YMCA pool.

    If their U.N. ``initiative'' is so highly principled and defensible in the name of research, then why did they pull their hand out of the cookie jar so quickly when caught with the goods?

    If the WTBTS wants to bid for a more mainstream iamge among the enlightened nations of the worlds, there are more straightforward ways of achieving that end-- like coming clean, liberalizing and moving on. But don't hold your breath. These gerontocrats are going down with the ship.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    yoyo,

    : Actually I believe that no matter what the WTBTS prints about the issue will not satisfy you because you will find any excuse in your demonized mind to attack them.

    Would you like a nice, warm batch of split-pea soup? I can hurl it clear across the room. I'm pretty accurate, too. Bring a bib.

    Farkel

  • Five Gospels
    Five Gospels

    Here is the Watchtower article that discusses why a true Christian would not become affiliated with the YMCA:

    Questions from Readers (Watchtower, January 1, 1979 p. 22)

    Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah's Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men's Christian Association)?

    Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.

    In September 1885 the Watch Tower took this position:

    "Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds."-P. 6.

    Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovah's Witnesses in one of their meetings.

    Many persons think of the "Y" simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:

    "The Young Men's Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regarding Jesus Christ as their God and Saviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men." (Italics added)

    While in some countries churches may not be the YMCA's main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the "Y" cannot be ignored.

    'But,' some may sincerely wonder, 'is religion or interfaith really an aspect of the YMCA?' The answer must be "Yes." Though religious features may be de-emphasized in some branches of the YMCA, all local "Ys" are still expected to comply with the Paris Basis. Further, note comments from the 1975 YMCA publication Christian and Open:

    Anza A. Lema, associate of the executive committee of the World Alliance of YMCAs, wrote:

    "From its very foundation, it has always looked to the Bible for inspiration and guidance. In many ways its role in the world has tended to complement that of the church without claiming to be a congregation itself. . . .

    "But it is more than just an instrument through which Christians put their moral ideals and teachings into practice as they serve society. Most supporters of the YMCA look at it as a place where real fellowship with one another through Jesus Christ is experienced. . . .

    "In humbling itself and trying to relate its structures and services more directly to the community, it will be carrying out more effectively its role of service and priesthood for its neighbours. . . . "

    Matthias Dannenmann, general secretary, National Council of YMCAs of Germany, said:

    "From its very beginning the YMCA was no doubt meant to have only Christians as members and on the other hand there was the missionary obligation towards those members who could not yet profess Jesus Christ. . . .

    "The YMCA is a big offer, but only in as far as Jesus Christ is working in it as Living Saviour. We should do our very best not to drive out this Lord but as we carry him in our name we should personally use every chance of meeting him in the YMCA and of continuously extending this possibility to other people."

    Officials of the organization have pointed out that they feel that more attention needs to be given to the religious orientation of the YMCA. Dr. Paul M. Limbert, from 1952-1962 secretary-general of the YMCA's World Alliance in Geneva, Switzerland, wrote:

    "It may readily be granted that too few Y.M.C.A.s take full advantage of the opportunity for ecumenical education inherent in these informal contacts among Christians . . .

    "When questions about different forms and beliefs arise among young people and adults, the wise leader takes advantage of the occasion to guide discussion from superficial argument to deeper dialogue. . . .

    Leaders in both churches and Y.M.C.A.s need to recognize more clearly the essential nature of a lay ecumenical Christian movement. A Young Men's Christian Association is not a church nor a substitute for a church. . . . Yet the Faith and Order commission of the British Council of Churches declared in a carefully worded statement in 1959 that the Christian Associations are 'valuable auxiliaries' of the churches, organs of their own missionary activity."-The Christian Century, June 10, 1964.

    And The Christian Century of August 29, 1969, in its article "Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!", stated:

    "Realizing that the Christian identity of the 'Y' has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor. . . . It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves."

    Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.

    In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.

    Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.-1 Cor. 8:11-13.

    Jehovah's Witnesses, of course, appreciate a balanced amount of healthful exercise. The Bible says that "bodily training is beneficial for a little." Yet it adds that "godly devotion is beneficial for all things." (1 Tim. 4:8) That does not mean devotion to a triune God. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is "God" in a trinity, as is taught in many of Christendom's churches and as is still included in the "Paris Basis" of the YMCA.-1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3.

    While interfaith efforts and ecumenism are popular today, they are not upheld by the true God, who told his servants: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. . . . 'Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves.'" (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Also, Jesus plainly said that the Almighty must be worshiped "with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Most definitely that does not mean joining in a religious cause with persons holding beliefs contrary to what the Scriptures teach. (Rev. 18:4, 5) Thus, it is because of their understanding of what God expects of true worshipers, and of what the purposes and direction of the YMCA are, that Jehovah's Witnesses may not become members of that organization.

    Further, it is well to give thought to the fact that in virtually all the years of the YMCA's existence, it has not acted in harmony with the spirit of Isaiah 2:2-4, as can be noted from the following historical facts:

    "YMCA services to the armed forces began, in the United States, with the Civil War, and it continued giving service through all wars thereafter."-Encyclopaedia Britannica, Micropaedia, Vol. X, p. 835, 1976 ed.

    "In the Civil War, only ten years after its beginning in Boston, and before there were buildings or secretaries or financial resources, a total of 4,859 'delegates' were recruited and deployed and over six millions of donated funds used for the temporal and spiritual needs of soldiers. . . . In World War I, the American Y.M.C.A. assumed an enormous responsibility for service at home and abroad for which a staff of 25,926 was required with expenditures of more than 167 million dollars. In World War II, the Y.M.C.A. became one of the organizations that founded the United Service Organizations [USO], joining as a group of private religious organizations from Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish faiths in an agreement with the Federal government to provide civilian recreational, welfare, and religious services to men in uniform and to war-production workers in communities adjacent to military establishments."-The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol. 36, pp. 13,467, 13,468, 1952 ed.

    "YMCA activities for members of the armed forces began during the Civil War (1861-1865). These services increased with each later war and reached their fullest development during World War II (1939-1945). The YMCA maintained more than 450 clubs for the Allied armed forces."-The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 21, p. 477, 1978 ed.

    This kind of service under the name "Christian" was certainly not in fulfillment of Micah 4:3.

    Wow... they state their position in no uncertain terms here! I especially appreciated the opening remarks:

    We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.

    This is really a key point. Is not the UN also aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote peace?

    The answer, of course, must be yes. Consider what the December 8, 1989 Awake! magazine says on page 27:

    Religious involvement in the search for peace confirms what Dag Hammarskjöld, former secretary-general of the United Nations, once said: "The [UN] Organization and the churches stand side by side as participants in the efforts of all men of good will, irrespective of their creed or form of worship, to establish peace on earth."
    I also appreciated this from the YMCA article:
    And The Christian Century of August 29, 1969, in its article "Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!", stated:

    "Realizing that the Christian identity of the 'Y' has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor. . . . It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. [b]The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves

    ."Similarly, are the churches of Christendom relying upon the UN to do only what God's Kingdom can accomplish? I shouldn't even have to answer that but consider what the December 1, 1976 Watchtower says:
    What about the world's religious systems as a whole? Do they act like the harlot "Babylon the Great"? [b]Have they looked to the United Nations as man's only hope for peace and security and, hence, as needed for their own preservation? Do these religious systems, then, not depend upon the United Nations as does a rider upon his horse? The facts speak for themselves
    .Frankly, I don't see how any sincere Jehovah's Witness, after carefully and honestly examining this information (and adhering to the Society's reasoning on matters), can come to the conclusion that the Society's former association with the UN's department of public information was not inappropriate.

    I'm still searching for the other article I had in mind that essentially stated that because the UN is idolized as man's only hope for peace, it is thus worshiped and amounts to the same thing as religion. However, because I can't remember the exact wording I'm having trouble locating the reference. I'll keep looking and post it as soon as I find it...

    Five Gospels

  • Tin Man
    Tin Man

    >>>"I am sorry to point out that maybe on this issue, you have read too much into the "apostate reasoning" that is presented with the supposed "proof".

    Sorry? Why? Because you were caught? And if the so-called "apostate reasoning" is "supposed proof," did your leaders immediately withdraw from that association when the "apostates" discovered your charade? Also, if the proof is only "supposed," then where's a solid rebuttal to that proof without the ad hominems and red herrings?<<<
    A friend of mine heard a court judge ask an elder what "apostate" means he would or could not tell him cause it only has useful meaning if your a Jehovah's witness. This situation is sick and wrong when you think about it that they have their so called theocratic meanings to words that other humans on this planet uses all the time and finds no difficulty trusting the dictionary for its meaning rather than changing its meaning for the sake of self interest. Tin Man

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I can see it now, someone in a JC defending their joining the YMCA:

    "You are assuming that my association with the YMCA was a gross sin and not an innocent act in order to take advantage of its resources."

    "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
    Believe in yourself, not mythology.
    <x ><

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