The Clergy- Laity Watchtower Lie

by metatron 38 Replies latest jw friends

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  Gozz

  Gozz: Who said that giving is wrong? Why does the Jws not use Paul as an example. He still worked as a tent maker so as not to place a burden on the brothers. Why not follow that example in the circuit work?

  ****On what reading do you base your comment. The gracious Apostle Paul did work as a tent maker, but that should not be misconstrued that he did at the expense, or suffering of the spreading of the good news. He certainly was not a burden on the brothers, and neither are those in the circuit work. Or do you complain? Do you not rrejoice in gracefully sharing with the holy ones int he good work they do? If you share, then, you must share with heartfelt appreciation, and with thanks. In the spirit of balance, the Apostle Paul, inspiringly encouraged unselfish sharing. Are you of the opinion that the brothers in the circuit are burden? I fear that you would have fallen to apostate propaganda, and the wicked reasoning of those not showing appreciation for spiritual things.

  That way, a lot more money could go to what James calls the “acceptable form” of worship, namely, looking after widows and orphans. When the apostles took up collections, it was for the poor, not for the fat cats who, because of their insulated world, have no idea what it is to make a living.

  ****Take a moment to think about it! What if the Society were to hire people to do all the work that is accomplished, the printing of materials for the publishing of the good news, and sundry other tasks that lead to the smooth running of the organozation. At what cost will all that be? Surely, the work to be accomplished is enormous, and needs a great deal of organizational coordination and funds, which the scriptures clearly christen 'unrighteous riches'. Of course, the congregations are there to take good care of the poor, and share with them according to their needs. Is there a dearth of this wonderful sharing spirit in your congregation? You clearly show that your idea of making a living is inseparably linked with making money. There is money, and ther is life. And the work being engaged in by our brothers, though being obliquely despised by you, is the best work possible, and the best offering for a living that can be made. Do you not rejoice at that? It is Jehovah who makes rich, and adds no pain along with it. If the brothers look fat and well-fed, this should be a matter for rejoicing, even by you, for they have forsaken the pursuance of worldy riches, and have dedicated themselves, fully, wholesouled, to working what is fine. How is it possible that you make an argument against such a willingness to give, not things perishable, but the life, everlasting, in a city with no eartly foundations?
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  Will Power

  They say you should boycott the Gap & Nike because of child & slave labor. I'll bet these people really want a job and don't care as long as they can help feed their family. But is this ethical behavior by these "western", "should know better" corporations?

  The slippery WT corp occupies the same position, yet instead of designer clothes, they produce a designer religion, and hangs immortality (living forever) over its workforce. Using the excuse that they bring the world the good news has many times been exposed as anything but.

  Circuit work: hmmmm.

  Legally they demand their cake and they want to eat it too. They hide
  behind the protection of the clergy in a court of law, demanding their rights of confidentiality & tax free status yet condemning
  others and branding their "heirarchy" as satan run. They say there is no heirarchy in the WT, can a woman do the holy microphone job? Is this not the 1st rung on the ladder of a successful ministry?

  Such care is taken in reporting the "numbers" - return visits, attendance at assemblies, where is the reports for food, financial aid & charity to those OUTSIDE of this exclusive club? Where is that good news?
• 

  ozziepost

  I get sick and tired of hearing the Watchtower lie that they
  have no 'clergy- laity' distinction.......Need I go on?

  Actually, metatron, yes you do need to go on. Why? Because the WTS clergy/laity division is more in evidence within the Witness community than in your 'average' Christian church.

  Open meetings? You betcha. No closed door elders meetings in the back room.

  Secret elders manual? Nope. Just a Bible.

  Can women be involved? You bet.

  Do the elders talk about positions and who can be recommended because of their qualifications, etc? Nope.

  Is someone marked for life because of some misdemeanor? No.

  So Metatron, let's go on by all means. The reality is that the clergy 'class' is far more entrenched within the Witnesses than in the old 'whore of Babylon' as they so graphically refer to Christian churches.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  ThiChi

  Gozz:

  You did not address my question. Paul worked and still conducted the Lords work. Why not follow his example? Also, food was collected for the Poor, not for supporting a publishing empire. Why does the WT not follow this course?

  Yes I did complain. I remember as an elder at the Elder’s meeting for the Assembly, approving money for a separate apartment for a single CO. And his furniture and on and on. Why not stay with the friends, like Jesus and the other apostles did?
• 

  YoYoMama

  Do they have paid clergy? Yes!

  HA, what a moron! (sorry Simon for that one). Bethelites get $90 (in the US) per month for their personal expenses. How much do clergy from all other religions make?

  How much does the Watchtower pay local elders?

  By the way, all CO expenses are paid by the World Wide Work fund, if you're going to throw out stupid accusations, get the facts right. The circuit no longer pays for their insurance, cars, etc...

  And why can't the body of elders hold meetings in private? You're so stupid, you want to be there to snoop and listen in on them. Do you do that at work with managers, vp's, or the ceo when they have meetings?

  Also, when you walk into a Catholic church, how can you tell who the pastor or priest is?

  When you walk into a Kingdom Hall, can you tell off the bat who the elders are?

  There's your difference.
• 

  logical

  YoYo,

  You believe JW's are the truth, right?

  If this was the case they would have no leaders other than Christ. However, JW's are to listen to and obey MEN.

  The GB are at the top, they tell the DO's what to do, who tell the CO's what to do, who tell the Elders what to do, who tell the MS's what to do, these all tell the rank & file what to do.

  If your religion was the true one, they would not be telling each other what to do. They would be sharing and encouraging. Why is there a need for a SECRET book that only ELDERS are allowed to see? There should be NONE of this secrecy amongst the brothers if they were Christ's true brothers. This is evidence of a ranking system.

  Re expenses, what is the justification in giving CO's and DO's luxury expensive top of the range stuff, like suits, cars, accomodation, while they guilt trip the poor into contributing towards that?

  Re telling by looking if people are of a higher rank, the Watchtower are the masters of deception.
• 

  Adonai438

  Sorry to bust y'all's bubble but Pastors are volunteers too. Christians don't just go around forcing people into service
  Also didn't paul say not to muzzle the ox that is treading the grain as a metaphor for supporting those in service to God? Didn't Jesus instruct his disciples to accept lodging and food from people while they where in different towns preaching? I don't believe it is biblically wrong to accept support for neccessities from God's Church. If one is doing it for profit is a problem but not the same thing as getting your neccessities taken care of.

  As for recognizing the pastor verses recognizing the elders:
  It's about the same there.
  Yes, I could always recognize the elders as the leaders/clergy because they were always the extra-spiffy dressed men running aroud preparing for the 'meeting' and during the meeting they took just as much a primary role as a pastor would in a Christian church.
  I go to a christian church now and have visited many other congregations with friends and for special events and the pastor is not easily distinguishable. Most denominations do not dress their pastor up special. At any rate, there is no scripture against it in the Bible. Sure a pastor gets up and does the main teaching segment of a service but so do elders in the hall. May I remind the JWs that the NT outlines many leadership roles. Leadership is not wrong because the Bible gives the guidlines for it.
• 

  siegswife

  I questioned this same article on another JW board and it was avoided like the plague.

  Yo yo...the fact of the matter is that when the WT makes the statement that there are no clery/laity divisions in the bOrg, they are lying. There most definitely are divisions in this area, and if you say there aren't you are perpetrating the same lie.
• 

  YoYoMama

  logical: it is Biblical. Jesus instructed his apostles who in turn instructed others. He also used Paul to instruct elders which in turn instructed the members of each individual congregation.

  Were the early christians to be obedient to the elders?

  What is the problem with the book that elders use? Most topics there are also considered in Watchtowers that are read by the public. The only thing the book is useful for is that collects all pertinent information into one book so that they can use the information instead to searching through all those Watchtowers. And the topics covered are related to the responsability that they hold. Pioneers also have a book that they are given during pioneer school, this book also covers topics that are useful for those that take the lead in the preaching work. Publishers also have a secret book, that the public should do not get offered, which is the Organization book. Why is it only for JWs? Because it covers organizational procedures that only a Witness will understand. So the book thing is no big deal, just an excuse for apostates to attack the Watchtower and insist that they are showing favoritism.

  Adonai wrote:

  Sorry to bust y'all's bubble but Pastors are volunteers too.

  It depends on what church you go to. I admit that some are volunteers, but most live off the donations given at the church.

  Yes, I could always recognize the elders as the leaders/clergy because they were always the extra-spiffy dressed men running aroud preparing for the 'meeting' and during the meeting they took just as much a primary role as a pastor would in a Christian church.

  extra-spiffy? All JWs are encouraged to dress extra-spiffy for the meatings as a show of respect to Jehovahs house of worship. Come on you have to admit that if you walked into a kingdom hall, you would not recognize an elder unless someone pointed him out or he walked up to the stage.
• 

  NeonMadman

  Bethelites get $90 (in the US) per month for their personal expenses. How much do clergy from all other religions make?

  Where churches can afford it, some clergymen make a decent living. As they should. 1 Corinthians chapter 9 has a lot to say about how those who do the Lord's work should receive material support from it. If read in context, I mean. The Watchtower generally ignores that whole chapter except for the verses that speak of Paul - in an exception to the rule - working with his hands to support himself so as not to be a burden. So, if a church can afford to pay a fair wage to its ministry, then it shouyld do so. But you should be aware that there are many, many small churches where the minister serves either largely or completely at his own expense. Jw's are far from the only group with volunteer ministers.

  How much does the Watchtower pay local elders?

  Nothing, of course. If a minister is going to be paid, the arrangements should be made by the local church. There was no all-encompassing organization back in the first century that handled everything centrally. But, according to 1 Corinthians 9, ministers should be paid for their work, so the Watchtower's system is unscriptural on two fronts.

  By the way, all CO expenses are paid by the World Wide Work fund, if you're going to throw out stupid accusations, get the facts right. The circuit no longer pays for their insurance, cars, etc...

  God forbid that anybody except the Society gets to hold the purse strings. Where do you suppose the money in the World Wide Work fund comes from? Is it not the circuits, and the congregations within them, and the individuals within the congregation? JW's love to pick apart arguments over technicalities while ignoring the heart of the topic.

  And why can't the body of elders hold meetings in private? You're so stupid, you want to be there to snoop and listen in on them. Do you do that at work with managers, vp's, or the ceo when they have meetings?

  Obviously, any time two or more people want to have a conversation, they are entitled to do so in private if they wish. But any reputable organization does not hide its affairs in secret backroom discussions. Whatever is being done that is official congregation business is the business of every member of the congregation, and the information should be accessible to each member. This would be true whether the matter is financial or spiritual in nature. Elders are supposed to be servants to the brothers, remember? Instead they lord it as masters over the faith of the brothers, and deny them information that they are really entitled to by conducting their business in the shadows, while they expect all the individual members of the congregation to live their lives under a spotlight.

  Also, when you walk into a Catholic church, how can you tell who the pastor or priest is?

  In a Catholic Church, generally yes, because the clergy dress in special garments. Not so in many Protestant groups, where the Pastor is just as likely to wear a suit and tie.

  When you walk into a Kingdom Hall, can you tell off the bat who the elders are?

  There's your difference.

  No, not right off the bat. But if I walked into a Kingdom Hall, I'd know within 5 minutes who the elders were by the air of arrogance with which they carried themselves, and the deference shown to them by the "lower classes" who make up the rest of the congregation. Now, that's a real clergy class distinction, one far more severe than what is found in most of Christendom!

  YoYo, your problem is that you think you know what goes on in the churches because you read what the Watchtower says about them. Repeat this several times: The Watchtower lies a lot! And when they don't lie directly, they slant facts and omit information to make themselves look good. When you have visited churches of numerous denominations and observed for yourself what goes on there, then I'll be willing to hear your reasons why you think the Watchtower is superior. But your comments make it clear that you don't have a clue what goes on in the churches, other than what the Watchtower has fed you.

  Tom
  

  "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan