The Story of a Modern Famine - 1984 Ethiopia

by jgnat 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  dgp

  Yadda:

  "Ok, I will step back and you and humankind can have total self-determination but you must be prepared to reap with you sow; however, I reserve the right to prevent any depraved wickedness and unconscionable badness/evil that causes individual suffering and death to innocent adults and children that by any reasonable judgement has no bearing or affect upon humankinds right to indepedent governmental self-determination. Do you have any objection to that Satan?"

  Just for the sake of offering an alternative viewpoint - I can't resist the feelign to make it be as in the magazines-, "Read the Book of Job".
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  jgnat

  Are you suggesting, dgp, (smile) that we are merely the pawns of titans, working out their own debate?
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  yadda yadda 2

  dgp, the account of Job supports what I said because in that story God set a limit on Satan's badness. God told Satan he could do anything except touch Job's soul. So why don't we see the same thing today? Why can't God set some kind of reasonable limit on the evil Satan could create. For example, why couldn't God have told Satan he can do anything except cause death to innocent women and children? What is proven by permitting such direct evil when it is axiomatic that such things are evil by their very nature and every human government and person (except psychopaths) are utterly outraged at such things and governments create laws, police forces, etc to prevent them. If imperfect human governments give laws and have an enforcement agency of government to punish lawbreakers and protect the innocent then why would God give the 10 commandments then step completely back and wash his hands of everything for the new few millennia? Since God punishes persons who bring great evil and suffering and since the wages of sin is death, then why not have some kind of karma system so that persons who do bad things suffer themself in some way, eg, if you deliberately cause direct evil you will contract a terrible disease or your life span will shorten dramatically, for examle.
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  dgp

  The Lord already knew Job would withstand all that suffering, but he went ahead with that silly game. Sheep and people had to die so that Job would suffer. They were not even part of the game, except as pawns.

  If you believe in a god who can intervene in human affairs but refuses to do so, you have to accept that the Lord may sometimes be a bit of a bad guy. And you would only be "biblical".

  The Lord set a limit on Satan's badness

  I beg to differ. Satan is free to be as bad as he wants. Isn't he tempting us all the time (with things such as Sparlock)? Could the Lord allow zero tolerance for Satan's badness? Yes. Does he? No, because for some reason most of us are going to be annihilated, and Satan seems to be an essential part of the plot.

  Sometimes the Lord intervenes in human affairs, as when Joshua killed I don't remember what Canaanite people. What had the Canaanites done to deserve that rage? They were not worshipping him. But, if you choose one people, then you leave all others out. Why couldn't the Lord choose all peoples from the very beginning, so all people could save themselves?

  One could even argue that the Lord is indeed intervening in human affairs. Sometimes through actions, sometimes through omission. The Catholics say it very clear: "The Lord wanted it so, and we don't know why he did that but we have to submit to it".

  That said, I still don't believe there is a God. Or a God that intervenes in human affairs.

  So, JGNat, I think we're not pawns :-). I think there are no titans.
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  jgnat

  A compelling argument, dgp. I feel my firm foundations crumbling. Again.

  Is it possible we benefit from aspiring to a divine ideal? I am thinking of Frankl and his call to shoot for above average.
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  dgp

  Yes, you can benefit from a divine ideal. But, since I don't think there are divinities, I would want everyone to "shoot for above average" with respect to other things.

  Good video, by the way.
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  yadda yadda 2

  I said God set a limit on the badness Job suffered, not in general. But if you want to misquote me then argue against my misquote go ahead and make yourself look stupid.
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  dgp

  The Lord will save me from your attacks, Yadda. He will set a limit to your anger and will help you see I did not misquote you.