I was just listening to a JC for apostasy on JWStruggle. The issue was raised if elders are appointed by holy spirit, then why is there such an issue with sex abuse. The answer was given (and I thought it was quite true) well Jesus was the son of God and he appointed Judas under holy spirit, just to have him turn on him. Curious but what would be your answer to that.
Interesting point about elders appointment by holy spirit (apostacy case)
by joe134cd 16 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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menrov
The answer is correct. Whether one is appointed by holy spirit or not gives absolutely no confirmation of perfection or trust. Therefore, elders or religious leaders are just as human as anyone else and we should only follow Jesus, not men.
ELders or bishops or religious leaders have no authority over the flock, they (must) serve the flock.
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smiddy
Would`nt / could`nt this be a case for pre-destination ? or events being fore-ordained ? In other words Jesus knew all along that one of his disciples he chose would betray him .Whether he knew exactly which one , is irrelevant .
Something along those same lines got me thinking.
God created the earth and put humans in a garden of Eden , a very small portion of earth , that people associate with paradise. However outside of the garden of Eden thorns and thistles weeds and whatever also existed at creation , because man was to cultivate the ground and extend the garden of Eden over time .
So one could ask : Why would God have two opposing conditions existing at the creation of mankind if he did not already know they would fail the test of obedience .
On the one hand a garden of "paradise" on the other , the rest of the earth vegetation that needed to be eradicated if you wanted a " garden paradise"
In other words God knew they would disobey him and he had a backup plan to deal with that.
smiddy
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The Searcher
The several reversals (not clarifications) or abandonment of long held "given" truths (given by men in Brooklyn!) in the Watchtower July 15 2013, perfectly illustrates the apostle Paul's words at Ephesians 4:14 - "So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes."
Even many Elders are struggling to keep up with/believe the constant changes being spewed out by the Org.
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sparrowdown
Yes, I understood this to be the reason given for why if chosen by holy spirit, good elders go bad.
King Saul could be seen as another example of an epic fail on the part of holy spirit. Being selected by holy spirit does not mean the person isn't a potential douche.
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Oubliette
joe134cd: what would be your answer to that.
So, if appointments made by Holy Spirit are indistinguishable from those that are not, then what's the point?
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notsurewheretogo
The problem is though that some JW's are secret child abusers and THEN they become appointed and that is when you question any operation of this magical non-entity like force called Holy Spirit. -
Half banana
In a way I'm rather surprised that so many here who have left the Borg even for many years are still troubled by what the Bible says.
Holy spirit indeed...no such thing! Judas appointed by Jesus by holy spirit...just a story line and not an original one at that. It is a human document and has no evidence of supreme impeccable wisdom and its interpreters never get things right. The whole caboodle is to marshal submissive idiots who believe magic tales of gods and demons.The moral of this is not to be led by religious “Bible based” leaders...they only have authority over you if you want to believe it be so.
My response is that the Watchtower religion is just as fraudulent in its claim to authority as the Jesus story was in the fourth century. It is all irrelevant to the needs of thinking people. Non thinking accepters of religious hearsay have used these stories as a foundation for directing their lives; they miss out on the joys of making their own determinations in a free society.
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prologos
Half banana, we are not si much troubled, as having to use bible terminology and examples to show the INsiders how impossibly wrong the whole bible-structure thinking is.
Holy spirit inspired the prophecy about the betrayer, "eating food at the table" so: holy spirit was required to make that flawed, but spiritually perfect appointment to fulfill prophecy. get it?
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jhine
To argue this just from scripture ,which is probably the way to go with elders . Jesus willingly went to the cross so that good could come from his death . Judas didn't do anything that Jesus did not want him to do .
Children do not want to be abused . If you believe in the Holy Spirit or not it is patently clear that if he exists the WT clearly is not in touch with him on any level .
Jan