by joe134cd 16 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
I would say that Judas being appointed by holy spirit proves that holy spirit does not work or does not exist.
This means that holy spirit really has nothing to do with guiding people to do good. It also means we should not trust in the holy spirit we should trust in our own ability to make decisions.
Kate xx
Prologos, I understand the need to reference the Bible to speak to ‘insiders’ but to quote things found there often implies they exist if the wording is not clear. Holy Spirit is qualitatively no truer than Tinkerbelle is in Barry’s famous play. It’s just that HS is sprinkled with holy stardust and takes on a life in the imagination of religious people.
My point is that so much harm comes from living a life dependant on these total fictions... people wasting their precious lives.
If one knew the Bible well enough, and most of us did, then we might recall in the Book of Samuel that Ahitophel the royal adviser betrayed King David for thirty pieces of silver and hung himself. David here seen as the archetype saviour- king, not prophetic of Jesus but a stock mythical character from paganism of which Jesus became the name pinned to the second century Christian copy of this story. The fact that the Judas tale is second hand and literary (not factual) in style; disqualifies venerable talk of “decisions of holy spirit”. This demonstrates the nature of the Bible’s contents; not only self referencing stories but a vast borrowing from paganism which religious people are disinclined to consider or investigate since they prefer to believe in magic before reality.
In actual fact, it is believed that the elders are appointed by holy spirit because they are judged to have met the standards for older men in Timothy and Titus. It is these standards, that the Society believes are from the holy spirit. Thus when a man is appointed elder it is because the elders and co have judged him as meeting the inspired standard in the Bible and thus it is said he has been appointed by holy spirit.
As for Judas, though Jesus knew his heart that did not mean that Judas was predestined to betray him. Judas did what he did because his heart was greedy nothing more. A business owner may know which of his employees is likely to steal from him but he says nothing until the deed is done. Meanwhile that employee enjoys the same benefits and pay raises and yearly bonuses of all the rest. So too Judas benefited from seeing what the others saw and hearing what they heard and eating what Jesus provided but that did not change his heart.
I have to hold my ground here; most of you are talking as if these people were real. Judas didn’t go bad after he was selected, only his fictional character did because he probably did not exist. He is a made up person. At the time when Paul wrote, Judas had not been thought of yet (like in the oldest stories of Robin Hood, Maid Marion had not yet been invented). This is the nature of folk tales, they gain in intrigue and padding the more they are told and copied. The name Judas Iscariot is a literary invention not an historical person. Probably since the name Judas meant Jew, it was to load the blame for the Jesus-hero’s death on the Jewish nation...a political ploy for the Christ cult to remove themselves from their former connection to Judaism around the end of the first century and gain Roman favour.
The first writings of the death of Jesus were between thirty and seventy years after the supposed events took place. Can anyone remember the talk, words and fine details of ancient events for which they were not even eyewitnesses? As for all those details of Jesus’ death, they so closely resemble the narrative of a play that in fact they were the narrative of a play...A play seen and written down afterwards. All events are so compressed together in a seamless theatrical way. None of these events are historical; they are early Christian cult literature with magical holy spirit thrown in to bolster the credibility. They are no more or less truthful than any fictional tale is.
By believing that these things were true, we are deceiving ourselves and become embroiled in unending and pointless doctrinal squabbles. Logically how could these stories have any imperative meaning today?
The most interesting use of the Bible now is in uncovering the social and political history which forced the propaganda to be written down in the first place.
The illogical reasoning that the elder used by comparing Judas to elders who either are child rapists or allow child abuse to happen just blows my mind.
So...Judas being appointed by the Holy Spirit is the same as elders being appointed who tolerate child rapists.
Huh.
I see.
Judas was appointed by the Holy Spirit with an ulterior motive - it was a trick to ensure that the prophecy of the Messiah was fulfilled.
Does that mean that the Holy Spirit has an ulterior motive in appointing rapists to a position of authority or by appointing men who won't deal with the issue? And...pray tell...what would that motive be? What prophecy is being fulfilled that children have to be abused to make sure that god's will is done? Why would god need them to be abused?
Does this mean that the children who get raped are the same as Jesus being killed???
Are the elders comparing children to Jesus? Or did Jesus really like babies, after all?
Ah, what the hey...let's cherry pick the same as the elders do:
15And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them.....
The problem is though that some JW's are secret child abusers and THEN they become appointed and that is when you question any operation of this magical non-entity like force called Holy Spirit.
Exactly!
Doc
