need your advice again, please

by outsmartthesystem 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    So here's the latest in my pathetic saga. I've tried to fly under the radar for the past year, but it isn't working so well. I've learned not to engage my wife in debates but rather to ask questions. But no matter what thought provoking question is asked, her response is "I won't answer that. I don't owe you anything. You won't talk to the elders and you won't send a letter to Bethel so it is clear that you know you are wrong and are only trying to ruin my faith".

    And planting "thinking" seeds in my oldest child's head isn't working either because she has been turned into a little informant. My 5 year old is being turned into a JW psycho. What 5 year old wants to listen to kingdom melodies? What 5 year old wants to quit playing house so she can pretend she is at the meeting instead?

    I do have some good news though. I have found out over the past 3 months by having my sister's family visit.....and then later by going to visit my mom......that mom, my sister, my nephew and nieces and my BIL (sister's hubby) are ALL in the same boat as me. It all started by my sister noticing my "collection of books" on my bookshelf at home. Several discussions later, I've learned that the majority of my immediate blood family is making their exodus from this religion too! The reason I say this is to let you know that finally, I do have some support.

    I think I have reached the point where I must take a stand. I am not a passive personality. Fading just isn't in my nature. My wife has told me that she will only take me seriously if I take the plunge and write to NY or talk to an elder. My kids are being taught to worship the organization and disregard their father. How long do I let the burning inside me go? If I were to do this......here is how I would do it:

    I would first tell my wife that I am finally mailing to Bethel all of my research I've done on 607BC (I would focus on that topic), and the corresponding 84 questions I've developed. Then I'll tell her that they won't answer any of my questions. In fact, they won't even respond (she thinks they'll respond in writing with biblical answers to all questions). I'll tell her that they will send a letter to our local body of elders and the COBE will assign two unqualified local elders who know nothing of the information that I've sent to NY to come talk to me. When I ask to see a copy of the letter that was sent to them regarding me......they will decline to give it to me. I think that's a pretty good start as to how it will unfold.

    When the elders sit down to talk I will offer them a copy of what I sent to NY. They will decline. They will already have in hand several society based publications on the matter. (all of which I have thoroughly studied and have reponses and questions to) They will offer to go over them with me. I will say ok.....and we'll start. Paragraph by paragraph I will then open up my research book and respond to each point they try to make with the very same question that I sent to Bethel. They will be unable to answer each question and they will quickly go on the defensive. Again, I would make sure to predict all these things ahead of time. I think one of two things will happen.

    1) the elders will find a way to not DF me. Believe it or not....they seem to like me. It is common knowledge around here that I am "critical of the society". If they wanted me gone they'd have found a way by now. But at least I can prove to my wife that they cannot answer these questions. Her whole beef with me is that she thinks I am trying to ruin her faith. She thinks that since she is just a lowly woman, she cannot answer the questions I have....but since the elders are filled with holy spirit....they'll be able to. I am hopeful that she'll be shocked when she sees they cannot. 2) I will get the boot. I no longer hang out with any local witnesses so from a social standpoint (for me) it isn't a big deal. My family supports me so I have that too. I've tried to explain to her that she doesn't grasp how much such a decision would affect HER. For instance, she had a small congragation get together at our house. I attended and cooked for everyone. That won't happen anymore. Children from the KH come over to our house quite often and spend the night. That won't happen anymore. We can't meet other families for lunch. Etc. I am hopeful that if I were to get DFd she would see first hand what an evil and controlling device the DFing tag really is. Then again, it may just make her hate me and want to get away

    For me, the best part of situation 2 is that of the position her father will be in. Remember, she loves her father more than any other human being on this planet, including me. 30 years ago, her dad "found the truth". When he did, his father in law (my wife's grandpa) treated him like shit. He did so because it was his son in law that ruined the family. No more family Christmas. No more Thanksgiving. Not only that, but he had to sit by and watch as his daughter was indoctrinated into a cult. Well, my wife grew up and noticed how her grandpa treated her dad. Of course her dad brushed it off as persecution and that helped indoctrinate my wife even more. But the way he was treated by her grandpa really bothered her. To the point where she had a talk with him (grandpa) and told him how awful it was to see him treat her father as though he was dead. He has since opened up a bit and now at least treats my wife's father with a measure of dignity.

    THAT is what will be good. My father in law is an organizational disciple through and through. If I am DFd I have 100% confidence that he will never say another word to me. He will treat me as though I am dead. I am hopeful that I would be able to reason with her.....or at the very least MY children as they grow up. I am hopeful that I would be able to show them that the way my wife's grandpa treated her dad is the exact same way that HE treats ME. All because a person either accepted or did not accept a particular religion. All in all, my hope would be that my children would see the inhumane way that JWs treat me and realize that it is a cult as they get older. My hope would be that my children would be able to see the double standards and hypocritical behavior.

    So.....what do you think? Should I put the crack pipe away? Thus far I've taken the majority's advice and laid low

    On another note. Regardless of the above, I am thinking about making one more wave with my wife. I am thinking about insisting that my kids make friends with kids that are not at the kingdom hall. I want to do this because I realize that growing up with friends that are ONLY in the KH makes the indoctrination and control that much stronger. For a teenager, even if they begin to see the real truth.....the social aspect of realizing that they will be starting over with all new friends may in and of itself be enough to keep them in the borg. This will go over like a turd in the punchbowl with my wife.....but it is a battle I think that needs to be both fought and won. thoughts?

  • maninthemiddle
    maninthemiddle

    Your kids need to see the world is bigger that what they know now. Help them make friends outside the org, this will open them up to you, I believe when you show them there is more fun things to do that play meeting.

    Regarding meeting with the elders, you may try meeting with two elders and include you wife in the discussion, make it a friendly meeting to discuss "something" then your wife can watch while they can't answer your questions. I think that if you go the letter to bethel route you will put them on the offence.

  • earthfire
    earthfire

    It sounds like a good way to begin. I'm sorry thought that you're going through this. As for your kids, definitely make sure they have other friends. This will be one of the most important things that you can do. (BTW, I also listened to Kingdom Melodies when I was a kid. Mostly because those were the only records I had and I wanted to use my new record player but I did like them) Are your kids interested in sports or playing an instrument? If they are I'd suggest they try out for something, anything! Or get involved with community theatre, etc. That way they are having positive influences in their social lives. Just a suggestion.

    With all the studying and prep work you've done I think you'll have success in irritating the heck out of the elders, just no matter what try to handle it with love and try not to attack them too much. Lay out the facts but keep emotions in check if possible. Otherwise you'll spook them!

    I hope it all goes smoothly and that your wife and kids do decide to leave the org.

  • BreathoftheIndianNose
    BreathoftheIndianNose

    Tuff situation man, I hope it works out the best way that it can. It's so dangerous bringing your questions to the elders. It all depends what kind of people they are. Theres a high chance that they will see your questions as hazardous and view you as a threat that must be eliminated. Obviously you eventually want out, but it could be humiliating and scaring for you. And if your wife is present during the meeting, it could be disastrous for the relationship. It's hard to say what will happen, but if you expect people to be reasonable, you will most likely be surprised by the blaintant lack of reason used by witnesses.

    All the best.

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    Thanks for the comments thus far. The thing is......I'm in a different place mentally than I was a year ago. A year ago I was content to fly under the radar and play the system (hence my moniker). I am no longer afraid of being DFd. I have my family's backing. And I think it might serve to wake my kids up to the truth about the harshness of this religion as they grow older.

    Then again.....I've read the book "Mistakes were made but not by me". Perhaps I am simply self justifying what I feel in my heart is an inevitable conclusion.

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Should I put the crack pipe away?

    Overall, your plan sounds like a perfect recipe for a divorce. Just sayin'.

    Cult mind control is not something you can "reason with". Remember, by proceeding with any of these plans, you are threatening to take away your wife's hope of "everlasting life in a paradise earth" Can you compete with that?

    Your FIL has abundant literature to justify full shunning of you based on the "slaves instruction" Your wife will probably follow in lockstep. You mention "taking a stand" and not fading...are you still going to meetings? If so, consider stopping abruptly, taking no phone calls and answering no questions, no matter what. You can "take your stand" in this manner and everyone else has to just deal with it.

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    LG - I get what you're saying. She's thrown down the gauntlet. I quit going to meetings over a year ago. I've successfully faded. But my children are being brought up to be Watchtower zombies. If it weren't for them I'd just continue my fade. The gauntlet was thrown down in that she issued a challenge. Basically it was put up or shut up. If I don't send my findings to Bethel or to the elders then I am admitting that I am wrong and a slacker and a bad person that only wishes to disrupt her spirituality. If I don't have the balls to present what I've found to the elders then in her eyes I am admitting that I am wrong. And along with that....I had better not do anything to disrupt her raising them to be JWs. (since I have already admitted that I am wrong) That includes teaching them anything that contradicts WT theology.

    I have 2 choices - 1) don't rock the boat.....shut up and watch my children grow up trapped in a cult.....and forever knowing that my wife thinks I am a spineless snake or 2) meet her challenge and find out what happens.

    I don't know what to do. You're right.....number two may very well lead to divorce. But I am also not the type of man that can readily accept number 1. (although I've been doing it for over a year now)

  • blondie
    blondie

    I think the hardest way to fade is when you have a spouse who is still a believing jw and you have minor children.

    In my case, no kids and my husband left about the same time I did.

    It is good you found that other family members feel the same as you. It can be a morale booster.

    The best thing is to show love...

  • yknot
    yknot

    May I suggest giving it a rest some before proceeding....(ie change approach, calm her fears, abate her defenses.....).....live to battle another day.

    Do this by validating her emotions ......

    I am sure you never intended to work her up into the frenzy she is in....

    Apologize..... 'Dearest I apologize for making you feel like I was trying to 'ruin your faith'.

    Admit your whole approach has been wrong......that you have been a typical male......self-assured and determined. You should have never embarked on any of this alone because you had no 'voice of reason' helping you to keep balanced ......yall are a team, partners.....perhaps this has been your greatest err.

    Tell her you are considering writing the letter to Bethel, however in light of your recent discernment you realize you might have gotten too carried away by your research to the point of being blindly bias and you need her help composing the letter to keep you 'humble and focused'....also add that you know now that it is possible that you may have been led astray and her 'fresh eyes' might bring discernment. .....(this way she gets exposed to your findings via direct research articles etc and yall get to calmly and rationally discuss the merits of such and what should and shouldn't go into the letter.)

    Go very slowly .......make sure she knows exactly what we believe and when we started believing it (include previous versions and dates changed- better yet have copies of the WT publications showing the changes) about whatever topic yall are approaching.

    Treat her as an equal and include her....... you aren't the enemy then, you are a person asking for her help and wisdom because you value her and her insight.

    It is so encouraging to know you have support!

    I know you are tired.....but maybe give it one more last try.

    ~huggles

  • Anti-Cult
    Anti-Cult

    Awesome post Yknot! awesome

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