I Believe Catholicism And Its Trappings Are Silly, Strange & Weird!!!

by minimus 306 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  GLTirebiter

  Weren't Facists/Nazis and Communits enemies? Didn't the Catholics lend support toe the National Socialists?

  History shows that to be a false comparison. Hitler treated both the Kremlin and the Vatican with the same duplicity he used against everyone else (except, perhaps, Mussolini and Tojo). Saying that the Soviets were blameless while the Vatican was culpable is shameless double-talk.

  Stalin assisted Hitler with the invasion of Poland. Germany took over the western part, the Soviets took the east. Stalin and Hitler remained military allies until Hitler unleashed Operation Barbarossa, his largest attack of the war, against his former supporter. Though no doubt suspicious of each other, Germany and the USSR were not enemies until the German invasion.

  The Reichskonkordat Pius XI agreed to with Germany in 1933 was one of twenty-one such agreements promoting religious liberty. It was soon clear that Hitler had no intention of honoring it. Pius XI effectively rescinded the concordat in 1937 by issuing Mit Brenneger Sorge:

  ... We shall continue without failing, to stand before the rulers of your people as the defender of violated rights, and in obedience to Our Conscience and Our pastoral mission, whether We be successful or not, to oppose the policy which seeks, by open or secret means, to strangle rights guaranteed by a treaty ...

  ... Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds ...

  Then in September 1938 Pius XI said:

  No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites.

  This was said by a religious leader, who commanded no army and no navy. About two weeks later, the leader of a world-wide empire defended by a strong army, navy and air corps agreed to give Hitler the Sudetenland, territory belonging to a country with no role in negotiating that concession.

  So, who really played the dupe for herr Shiklgruber?
• 

  Isidore

  "How are you going to throw "National Socialism's paganism" into the mix with Atheists? Weren't Facists/Nazis and Communits enemies? Didn't the Catholics lend support toe the National Socialists? Quit reaching."

  How about quit ignoring actions of how the Church saved hundreds of thousands of lives during WWII?

  I will repeat what I said earlier to the same rhetoric that comes up from people that bring up this same tired argument.

  Pope Pius XII saved 800,000 Jewish lives, hiding Jews in monasteries, convents, and inside the Vatican itself; that he got to the Jews money for travel; that he issued fake baptismal certificates so they could pass as Christian; that he was praised by Jews at the end of the war (by everyone from Golda Meir to the Communist Albert Einstein) as a "righteous gentile"; that his was called by the New York Times the only voice among the silence on the topic of the Jewish persecutions; that the Chief Rabbi of Rome was so impressed by this Pope's holiness and heroism toward his fellow Hebrewsthat he took his name when he converted to Catholicism -- these things have been written about by people much more talented than I. Remember that ignored in the singular focus on the tragedy of the Jewish "holocaust" is the destruction of Christians that took place simultaneously: not only were Catholics also murdered by Nazis (3,000,000 in Poland alone!), but, at the same time, 15 million Christians were being murdered by our ally, "Uncle Joe" Stalin, much-beloved by FDR, American liberals, and American media. Where are the outrage, the memorials in every major American city, the Hollywood movies, the PBS specials, the "Christian 'holocaust' education programs" in public schools, the slogans, the defense leagues, the apologies for them? Where's even a mention of it in the typical American High School textbook? Why "the silence"? And why the double standard?

  And as you read all this, for the love of all that is Holy, realize that Pope Pius XII was in between a rock and a hard place. He was in Vatican City, surrounded by Rome, in the middle of Mussolini's fascist Italy. On one side of him he had Communism, which was slaughtering Christians in astronomical numbers, a movement led predominantly by Jews, and on whose side the Allies entered the war. On the other side of him, he had pagan racist Nazism that was, in part, a reaction against Communism, but which was just as anti-Christian. He was against both of these evil idealogies (see his Encyclical Summa Pontificatus below) but was hardly in a position to do much about either in a hugely public way without increasing the slaughter of both Jews and Christians. The great and holy Pius XII did what he humanly could, as publicly as possible, and most powerfully and effectively behind the scenes. The world knew this during and after the war; it has forgotten since the ascendancy of cultural Marxism that has changed our culture to one that is thoroughly anti-Christian -- most especially anti-Catholic.

  So Diest, what you have Pius XII do? "Send in his armies??" His actions, actions, spoke louder than words. He was lauded by the Jewish community for actions, not empty words.
• 

  Isidore

  "It's a dirty, low thing to do for the Catholic Church to continue its subversive activity in every way possible and now even to extend its propaganda to Protestant children evacuated from the regions threatened by air raids. Next to the Jews these politico-divines are about the most loathsome riffraff that we are still sheltering in the Reich. The time will come after the war for an over-all solution of this problem." Joseph Goebbels's diary, 26 March 1942 (Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, p. 146)"

  Apparently, people have bought into modern "Goebbel's" special brand of propaganda, history revisionism.....

  A sample of the Jewish testimonies:

  "We share in the grief of humanity [at the death of Pius XII].... When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."

  ~ Golda Meir

  "No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII."

  ~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America

  "In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See...was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews.... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."

  ~ Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania

  "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."

  ~ Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel

  "I told [Pope Pius XII] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.... We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church."

  ~ Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel's first foreign minister and second prime minister)

  July 25, 2005

  So now that you have been shown by the Jews themselves what they thought of Pius XII and his actions, let's move on.
• 

  rather be in hades

  "Hades, would you PLEASE stop feeding Ortho persecution complex? Would you buy an alcoholic a drink, a drug addict heroin, and geek a computer, Sol another wife? I fully support his right to seek out his next fix, I just don't want to provide it. Think about THAT you codependent enabler. "

  lol too true. question though...is this alcoholic a happy drunk? a horny drunk? and if a horny drunk...is she hot?

  i have to ask these qestions before i can logically give my answer ;)
• 

  Orthodox1

  Isidore,

  You speak truth to deaf ears. I use to hate the Catholic Church when I was an atheist. Then, as a Baptist, I hated the Catholic Church because I learned a few things from other Protestants to support my own bigotry.

  Faith is a grace, a gift by God. Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do to convince people on here to look past what they think they know, or what they prefer to know, to seek truth always and everywhere, no matter where it leads.

  If all were open to truth, in its wholeness, instead of preferring their half-truths that they learned or were given, all would be Catholic.

  Keep up the great, factual, truthful, work, Isidore.

  ...wait for it... wait for it... (rather be in hades is going to say something about me wanting to be persecuted, just wait) ;) God love him.
• 

  Twitch

  eh, whatever
• 

  binadub

  Hello Orthodox1:

  I have not been following the thread, so I don't know what has been said about Catholicism prior to this. There is a group who call
  theirself "AnointedJW" who posted an article about what faith is. They defined it much the way you do:
   Faith is a grace, a gift by God. . . . to seek truth always and everywhere, no matter where it leads.

  I had been watching Oprah Winfrey's "Super Soul Sunday," which presents a variety of spiritual perspectives, and this morning they had an Episcopalian
  minister who expressed views of faith very much like the AnointedJW article and something like you said above as well. In my response to their article for the day, I said: He said spirituality and belief in God is not dependent on denomination but God within the person. He even quoted Jesus saying, "the Kingdom of God is within you." When asked, he even said he did not believe people need to attend church on Sunday. He denounced any idea of people telling others what they should believe--that people are responsible for  their own faith and beliefs. I was impressed at how much his perspective of God and Christ agrees with mine--and yours [AnointedJWs] as being rather outside of "religion."

  Another former Catholic exJW on the forum, who first tried Baptists and other evangelicals after leaving the WT, then returned to Catholicism, then married and Episcopalian and ventured in that direction, is now somewhat agnostic/searching. He responded to my post and said something like what you said above about Catholicism. My response was:

  I get turned off religiously by Catholicism when I see the pomp and elaborate costumes and ritualism displayed, as well as the adoration of the Pope when he visits. It was similar when in my visit to Israel we were taken through a number of Catholic church shrines (which I DO credit the Church for preserving these historic places for us to now visit) and seeing priests walking in flowing garb and swinging a lamp with burning incense, etc. That kind of ritualistic ceremony means nothing to me. (Although, I admit that kind of thing was characteristic of Judahism and the temple before Christianity. Not so much with Gentile Christians.)
  
  I think you're right that a lot of individual members of these religions are more progressively liberal. I am just not drawn to the ceremonial "traditions," or things like belief that confession to a priest, baptizing infants, "last rites," etc. holds significance for personal faith. It's fine if that is what makes a person feel spiritual and connect with God; it just isn't my thing. I get more from Nature in a walk in the wild and whispering my sentiments to God privately.
  
  I do credit the Catholic movement greatly with preserving the canon we call the Bible, much art and a rich history. I don't agree with their historical concept of Christianity in the first and second centuries. A lot is being revealed about that in our last century by both Bible and secular historians and archeologists.
  
  Having said that, my favorite bible scholar and historian was Fr. Bargil Pixner, (RIP April 2, 2002) from Tyrol in Europe. He was a prior of the Benedictine community of the Dormition Abbey in Jerusalem. He introduced his theology to both Catholics and Protestants. He was an accomplished archaeologist and biblical topographer who was responsible for uncovering parts of the Essene Quarter on Mt. Zion, where it is believed Jesus held his "last supper." His books are my favorites. Don't know if they are still published. His contributions to Biblical research are indispensible.
  
  I also appreciate much of the charitable perspectives of Catholicism, which I think are superior to many other denominations.
  
  Catholicism has advanced, imo, for not excommunicating people, much less shunning them, if they don't agree with all the teachings of the Church. That allows people more spiritual freedom than exists in denominations like Jehovah's Witnesses, and is much more progressive in that way.

  So that's my view of orthodox religion, fwiw.

  ~Binadub
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  Atheism's long and bloody history is longer and bloodier. The Cultural Revolution, the genocide in the Vendee, the starvation of the Ukranians, etc., etc., etc. Throw in National Socialism's paganism, and the score gets pretty lopsided. I've gotta own Bloody Mary, you gotta own Pol Pot. Fair's fair.

  Agreed. Fair IS fair.

  So, show me the long and bloody history of atheism where people were kill because they wouldn't become atheists or in the name of atheism. Just because some one IS an atheist AND a horrible person doesn't count. Vanilla might be their favorite ice cream, but unless they are killing in the name of it, much like atheism, no one except Christian and Catholic apologist gives a shit. And it doesn't count.

  So, tally that up, then tally up the people killed in the name of religion or because they wouldn't convert and THEN let's see which side is bloodier.

  As for whether atheists need to "own" Stalin or the Gang of Four, it seems quite the dodge to claim no organizational affiliation. These guys were atheists, living an authentic atheist life in accord with good atheist principles. It is those principles you endorse, so how to you get to skip out?

  It's not skipping out because, unlike Jesus/Catholics, they aren't killing in the name of atheism.
• 

  binadub

  EP:
  So, show me the long and bloody history of atheism where people were kill because they wouldn't become atheists or in the name of atheism.

  It has been my impression, admitted possibly subject to propaganda, that U.S. Soviet Russia and China in the past have been guilty that kind of adversity to people practicing faith in their political arenas.

  ~Binadub
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  It has been my impression, admitted possibly subject to propaganda, that U.S. Soviet Russia and China in the past have been guilty that kind of adversity to people practicing faith in their political arenas.

  Religion was considered to be competition for allegiance to the state and the leaders. It had nothing to do with atheism.