Because it would be a less compelling fictional narrative for primitive humans.
Why wasn't the Issue of Universal Sovereignty raised amongst the angels long before Adam and Eve
by yadda yadda 2 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tec
Obviously YHWH had a faulty design in man AND angels in the free will arena:
I think you can only think that because you don't know how things would be otherwise (I would say worse, or pointless)... and because you cannot see and do not know how things are going to turn out.
Sorry, but they didn't invent the issue of sovereignty: it's much older in Xianity than the JWs.
That still does not make it a true issue.
Peace,
tammy
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King Solomon
TEC said:
Obviously YHWH had a faulty design in man AND angels in the free will arena:
I think you can only think that because you don't know how things would be otherwise (I would say worse, or pointless)... and because you cannot see and do not know how things are going to turn out.
Yeah, that's the point: it's (yet) another opportunity for pointless theological speculation, just like clergy in the Middle Ages who argued over how many angels can sit on the head of a pin, etc.
Being that the entire premise is pure fantasy, it's actually a non-issue, isn't it? There, I've solved it for everyone!!! So go out and enjoy your life, as it's not real!!
Sorry, but they didn't invent the issue of sovereignty: it's much older in Xianity than the JWs.
That still does not make it a true issue.
Never-mind my comment above, then: it seems you now agree with me, understanding that the Sovereignty issue isn't "real", but a man-made plot-twist or modification added into an older tall tale (TEC, have you been reading Leolaia's posts, and seeing the light?).
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tec
LOl... I was pretty sure that I was saying that assuming free will is a faulty design was the non-issue ;)
Never-mind my comment above, then: it seems you now agree with me, understanding that the Sovereignty issue isn't "real", but a man-made plot-twist or modification added into an older tall tale (TEC, have you been reading Leolaia's posts, and seeing the light?).
Sol, I can't NOW agree with you, when I NEVER thought universal sovereignty was the issue to begin with.
See, you and I agree about a lot of things regarding 'religion'... just not regarding Christ/God/faith.
You can have faith in Christ and God without religion, or its various interpretations of doctrines, dogmas, etc.
Peace,
tammy
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stapler99
The explanations in the JW literature about Universal Sovereignty never had a lot of Bible citations. I never felt like it was being proved properly.
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sabastious
I asked the same question in this video I made a while back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRbaYYRbKg
-Sab
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tootired2care
This is a very interesting question. I no longer believe the bible, but assuming that is reality for the sake of argument; I do agree with others here that the account of Adam and Eve has far too many holes to be taken literally, and therefore is probably an allegorical account. It explains in simple terms a very complex sequence of events that took place in the struggle for freewill. Be that as it may you have a fantastic point in that it would seem that humans really do get the shaft for a problem that should have been worked out long before we were on the scene.
I know this may sound morbid, but the only conclusion I can come to from the bibles reality is that we are just a science experiment for god to satisfy his own curiosity, entertainment and narcissism to be bowed down to. Why do I say that? There are so many acconts in the bible that boil down to one thing "a test". These tests lead one to believe that God really does not value human life, and feelings so much. Look at the case of Job.
The one thought that I cannot get over is that after he supposedly "fixes" this world, he is going to allow another test, and who knows how many more after that (new scroll LOL), until every soul is complete subjection to him. Futhermore it seems that the wicked angels get a free pass from god to continue to interfere in man's affairs. Why would he continue to allow this sequence of events to repeat again and again? I think you know the answer.
Is this really a loving god, or a narcisstic indian giver who just wants to snuff out all freewill?
Rev 20:1-7 (NIV)
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They [a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth —Gog and Magog —and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
. . .For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 6 and we are holding ourselves in readiness to inflict punishment for every disobedience, as soon as YOUR own obedience has been fully carried out. . . (2CO 10:4-6)
P.S. Interesting side point (paradox): if Satan and wicked angels are banned from heaven, and you believe everyone is resurrected to heaven or hell, then how is it possible that he is going to be loosed to mislead anyone?
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steve2
Good critical thinking yadda yadda 2. It can still be surprising in hindsight how amusingly ridiculous fairy tales appear when we start to grow up and take responsibility for our thinking processes. Imagine never feeling mentally equipped to question Jack and the Beanstalk or The Three Little Pigs or Adam and Eve and the Talking Snake - all fairy stories through and through.
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yadda yadda 2
Interesting responses, thanks. I'm really only discussing this from a JW's perspective, who believe the Bible is inerrant.
Satan is described as a dragon dragging a third of the stars (angels) in his tail, but it makes no sense whatsoever that fully a third of all the angels would have sided with Satan only after humans appearance. Why didn't Satan and other angels have demanded the right to independent sovereign rule in the spirit realm eons before then, demanded the right to be free to go off somewhere in the universe and do whatever they want without being answerable to God, maybe even materialising bodies on some inhabitable planet somewhere?
Presumably Satan, as the father of the lie, was fomenting his rebellious lies in heaven amongst his kindred angels long before Eve was seduced, but the rebellion did not become manifest in the material world until creatures in God's image, ie, humans, finally appeared.
What is very puzzling about it all too, is that if God sees himself as our father and the angels and humans are his sons/children, then all parents understand that it is the most natural thing in the world for a child to eventually grow up, mature and come out from under its parents authority. Individual self autonomy and self volition is a fundamental, axiomatic human right. Only severely mentally disabled children remain under the authority and care of their parents after reaching adulthood. So why all this angst and punishment by God for a manifestation by Adam and Eve of this most natural human desire - the desire for self autonomy and being free to decide for ones self what to do with their life, as long as no harm is being done to anyone else? How could God possibly deny that right if he sees us as his father?
Maybe it was only a rebellion because the timing wasn't right, because in God's eyes Adam and Eve were like little, immature children, but eventually as humanity matured God would have relaxed and eventually let go of his authority (and moved on to other projects in the universe)? The last couple of chapters of the book of Revelation seem to suggest that eventually man will reach a state of self-government after the 1,000 year reign is ended, with 'kings' on earth.
Fascinating.
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Nambo
Maybe this issue had been raised and Mankind was as Tootired suggests, the test to answer the question raised previous to mans creation.
See, I have often wonedred how fortuitous it was, that Satan tempted Adam and Eve before they had any kids, imagine the senario if they had a couple of kids first, then sinned and the kids didnt, we would have half the world as we are now, and the other half consisting of 7000 year old perfect people who wouldnt have been able to talk to us in case they learnt our bad ways.
So it had to have kicked off right from the start, just like a tesy that had been prearranged.
Either that or God moved all the perfect people to live inside a "Hollow Earth" and now they come visit us in their flying saucers?