By What Authority?

by Orthodox1 183 Replies latest jw friends

  • Prognoser
    Prognoser

    Tec, obviously a just God would not OK torture and the other bad things the Church did. But if he interfered and said "stop doing those terrible things in my name," what would happen to our freewill? And yes, if you are sincere about Jesus Christ, you know better than to do those things. But also consider context. The Catholic Church was the foundation upon which many people's faith relied. Suddenly, the Church was facing a break with the reformers and was being infiltrated by fake converts, like the Marranos, which led to the Spanish Inquisition. It took a harsh reactionary position. Was it right for them to take such a harsh position? Probably not. But that is what the leaders chose to do. What was God to do? What is your advice to God in that situation? Regardless, the Word was proliferating throughout the world. The Church's faulty actions can be attributed to individual sin, since an individual or small group of individuals chose to make the decisions on behalf of the greater Church.

    New Chapter, I will answer your questions, without getting into theology, with simply that God allows bad things to happen for the sake of maintaining our freewill. Is that so difficult a concept to grasp? If God stopped all bad things from happening, you would complain that he wasn't letting you decide the course of events in your life. You want to have your cake and eat it too?

    You can't argue that the Bible contradicts itself, because it never promises utopia in this world. Even the millenial reign wasn't to be a utopia, and it clearly wasn't.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Prognoser:

    Who says God was to bring utopia to this world? Obviously, according to the Bible, it wasn't part of the test. It would have nullified the test and, more importantly, free will. So, in the meantime, God must make due with what he has: an imperfect and highly rebellious creation.

    LOL! What "test" or "experiment"?

    You would have to be ignorant of even the basics of conducting an experiment (AKA the scientific method), or the principles of carrying out an impartial or fair trial, to suggest what God is doing is either...

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    What was God to do? What is your advice to God in that situation?

    What did he do when Uzzah touched the Ark of the Covenant? What did he do when those priests chose their meat by sticking a fork into boiling stew? What did he do to the Kingdom of Israel when it became disobedient? What did he do to those that worshipped a calf?

    It would appear that this god can set aside freewill and dole out justice at any time---particularly when his name is on the line. So my advice would be----HEY GOD---YOU SMOTE UZZAH FOR BREAKING YOUR RULE, EVEN THOUGH HIS MOTIVATION WAS TO PROTECT WHAT WAS YOURS! WHAT DO YOU SAY YOU GIVE A LITTLE HELP TO THE SLAVES AND INQUISTION VICTIMS? YOUR NAME IS TAKING A HIT BIG TIME. WHOO HOOOO! CAN YOU HEAR ME?

    Yeah, something like that.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    New Chapter, I will answer your questions, without getting into theology, with simply that God allows bad things to happen for the sake of maintaining our freewill. Is that so difficult a concept to grasp? If God stopped all bad things from happening, you would complain that he wasn't letting you decide the course of events in your life. You want to have your cake and eat it too?

    It is not a difficult concept to grasp if that is what this god has really been reported to do. He crushed the Bablylon to set his people free. He allowed Babylon to crush Israel for using their free will to worship idols. He killed innocents in Egypt for using their freewill to hold a nation as slaves. He struck John the Baptist's father mute for questioning a message (oops---he used his freewill inappropriately). He wiped out Canaan for worshipping false gods, even though he was not their god and they knew no other way.

    This god has NEVER been reported to sit back and allow freewill to reign. NEVER. That's just the excuse that people use when trying to explain his impotance in more modern history.

  • Prognoser
    Prognoser

    But NewChapter, if God did not directly interfere in the lives of the ancient Hebrews, don't you think His Word would have vanished into obscurity? And how would that have fared for the future freewill of humans? God should have allowed truth to slip into obscurity and evil to dominate, thus skewing the balance of choice?

  • tec
    tec

    But if he interfered and said "stop doing those terrible things in my name," what would happen to our freewill?

    Nothing would happen to our free will. Choose to listen, or not... same as always. But these people committing violence, and causing pain, and judging, murdering, torturing... then they have already exercised their free will NOT to look at or listen to Christ. He already told them NOT to do these things. They choose not to listen... and then make matters even worse by lying and stating that God sanctions these things. Christ came to show Truth... if they are not listening to or looking at Him, then how is He using them as His organization?

    This is the exact same reasoning as the WTS uses.

    Each individual person is responsible for looking to Christ, and no one else. He is the leader, and teacher. Not the Catholic church, or the WTS, or the WBB, or the LDS. Just Christ. And He did not in any way shape or form sanction execution, torture, burnings at the stake, or even war in His or God's name. Nor did any of the earlier disciples. That came when the 'church' formed a union with the 'kings' of the earth. (politics, power, etc)

    And yes, if you are sincere about Jesus Christ, you know better than to do those things. But also consider context. The Catholic Church was the foundation upon which many people's faith relied. Suddenly, the Church was facing a break with the reformers and was being infiltrated by fake converts, like the Marranos, which led to the Spanish Inquisition. It took a harsh reactionary position. Was it right for them to take such a harsh position? Probably not. But that is what the leaders chose to do.

    Yes. The church leaders chose to do this.

    Not Christ. Not God.

    It was, in fact, against the teachings of Christ.

    What was God to do?

    He did it... in sending His Son. To show the Truth. What one chooses to do with that is upon them.

    What is your advice to God in that situation?

    I have no advice. But I don't think there was much 'God' in those decisions. I do not believe God was with them in their choices. Because they were listening to someone/thing other than His Son.

    Regardless, the Word was proliferating throughout the world. The Church's faulty actions can be attributed to individual sin, since an individual or small group of individuals chose to make the decisions on behalf of the greater Church.

    The "Word" is Christ. He was not IN those actions. Those actions... done in his name... serve to bring reproach upon his name, to those who do NOT know him, and turn away from him because they are looking at the church to see Christ/God. When really, one should be looking only at Christ to see God.

    Christ is the mediator between men and God.

    There is no mediator between men and Christ.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Okay---Prog----fair enough.

    So---how did striking down Uzzah work toward this goal? This god has made exceptions in the past---think of David. Why not with Uzzah? Reflex reaction, quick decision---BANG.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I would say that once a Church and its leaders go in for torture, slavery, genocide, persecution etc, it is not reasonable to still insist they represent the god they claim to represent, unless you agree this is what the god wants. An institution ceases to represent an entity the moment it swerves wildly off point.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades
    But NewChapter, if God did not directly interfere in the lives of the ancient Hebrews, don't you think His Word would have vanished into obscurity? And how would that have fared for the future freewill of humans? God should have allowed truth to slip into obscurity and evil to dominate, thus skewing the balance of choice?

    not at all. the bible could survive, jst as cuneiform tablets srvived for all those years.

    to assume that humans could not have come to the philosophy of freewill without the bible doesn't make sense. the greeks had a democratic society well before large swaths of the bible was ever conceived.

    hindus and bddhists also have a philosophy of free will as well and they are not in any way from the bible.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Sine men have tried to bask in the divine power of the gods they have indentured themselves into a state of power and control

    over people, their social interactions with the society of where they lived were expressions of that established divine connection.

    Unfortunately that connection was all apart of their own imagination and ignorance of the world they lived in.

    One could say their authority was given to themselves by their own inherent imagination and nowhere else.

    This still appears today in religious organizations such as the JWS and the Catholics.

    As history has shown both good and bad has come out these set up established Divine channels but its really more

    about the endeavor to cultivate and achieve power and control.

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