Impossible conversation: Jesus and Nicodemus: YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN

by Terry 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Ding

  Why could Nicodemus' confusion only occur if Jesus used a word that could mean either "spiritual birth" or "physical birth"?
  

  Assume that Jesus used a word that meant "born from above."
  

  You said, "If that’s what it means then Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must have a birth from God above if he is to see the kingdom of heaven."

  Why can't it just be that Nicodemus didn't understand what Jesus meant by that?

  Even today, using English, the Watchtower's understanding of what Jesus meant by this "birth from God above" (designation -- whenever it happens -- to be one of 144,000 who will go to heaven instead of living on a paradise earth) is very different than what evangelical Christians understand it to mean (an inner transformation by the Holy Spirit which occurs at the time any person surrenders his or her life to Christ).

  With respect, even your own explanation of the term is ambiguous. What is this "birth from God above" that some people have and some people don't? Is that something that takes place -- if at all -- at the time of physical birth? During a person's childhood? Adult years? At the moment of conversion to Christianity? At the moment of death? If it's something you're either born with or not born with, then Nicodemus was out of luck. What was he supposed to do? Go back and start over? Isn't that a reasonable explanation for his question to Jesus that has nothing to do with the differences between Aramaic and Greek?
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  Hold Me-Thrill Me

  It could also be that Jesus used the aramaic word for "again" and Nicodemus answered accordingly. The word play in the Greek is interesting but that in itself does not mean Jesus did not say what Nicodemus understood him to be saying. Bart sometimes makes things more complicated than they are.
  

  Just as a side note in my opinion with the current atmosphere here in the U.S. Bart may be making a mistake in his new book by including negative criticism of Abraham Lincoln. Just my opinion. I like the guy. Do not agree with him but I like him nonetheless. He is at least sincere a trait becoming more and more valuable these days.
  
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  opusdei1972

  Hi Terry , I wrote an article about things told in the NT, which could not happen. I also included that mentioned by Bart Ehrman, where Jesus pronounced that greek word of double meaning to Nicodemus. Just an impossible thing done between two aramaic speakers. It is another proof that one of the writers of the Gospel of John invented dialogues lacking historicity.
  

  Here my article in Spanish:
  

  http://jehovismo.com/jesus-no-dijo-eso/
  
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  opusdei1972

  That dialogue could happen only between two greek speakers.
  
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  B4Right

  I don't know the context surrounding this conversation but In a private conversation such as this was Jesus disciples with him or in ear- view to hear this? Makes you wonder how could you write something accurate if no one was an eye witness to record it- unless in this case Jesus while with John said ( in talking about their day) hey I had a conversation with Nicodemus....
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  B4Right

  Does GOD really care about the writings of men even if it is what we call the bible, a creative work of Men! After all it doesn't seem to be on the priority list of making sure his name is pronounced correctly in the " good book"!
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  Crazyguy

  I don't understand Bart, he leaves being a Christian and talks about how the Bible is crap but then recant that Jesus was not real and now says that yes he existed.
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  B4Right

  I can't understand how Bart after decades of study doesn't believe in GOD! I can understand not believing in the bible - but not a Creator, not intelligent design!
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  Crazyguy

  After all I have read and studied about the bible and older religions I can see how it would easy to give up the idea of a creator at least one that's cares anyway.
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  Coded Logic

  I have to agree with Ding on this one. I came across this argument by Ehrman about a year ago and when I looked up the John 3 in the NWT it seemed perfectly reasonable that Nicodemus could be confused by being "born from above" rendered in both places.

  Now it could well be meant as word play in the Gospel of John under the mistaken belief that they were speaking Greek. But there's no way to establish from these two scriptures that Jesus and Nicodemus weren't speaking in Aramaic.

  Whether the Greek word is rendered as "born again" or as "from above" . . . or even if it's rendered as both "born again" and "from above" in different places - the statement is still confusing. And Nicodemus line of questioning is completely reasonable.

  I've learned to be very cautious with Ehrman's claims and lines of reasoning - you really have to do your research. He does a lot of sloppy work. Carrier has pointed this out numerous times: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1026